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| | Ty Kendall 
Великобритания
Local time: 00:51
иврит => английский
| For your sake... | Aug 2, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It would be a long haul to get PMs deintoxicated from the pernicious hold of the native translator habit, but a feature like this will at least allow translators to alert errant PMs showing over-indulgence to this habit to be more discerning, and eventually, it could be hoped, that they would mend their ways.
But the trouble is, while this may have a salutary effect on the more particular PMs, the ones who know little about translation requirements and who take a formulaic approach to running their businesses would get no wiser by such words of good advice and they would continue merrily on the path to disaster on the backs of their favoured native translators.
I really hope none of your outsourcers are reading this.
You have a very skewed (and frankly insulting) view of outsourcers. You seem to forget (or wilfully ignore) the fact that MANY outsourcers are ex-translators themselves, or have worked with language in some capacity, and therefore know their stuff and all the issues involved.
Those who aren't linguistically minded make up for that by being business-oriented. It sure as hell isn't good business to keep translators on your books who "are on the path to disaster" with every project, and the outsourcers wouldn't use them repeatedly or as a matter of principle merely for the sheer fact of being native speakers of the target language if they had found that this philosophy ended in disaster more often than not and they surely wouldn't keep insisting on it - those taking a "formulaic approach" (whatever that means) would've gone out of business!
[Edited at 2013-08-02 19:48 GMT]
| | | | | OOPS! Don't generalize | Aug 2, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I really hope none of your outsourcers are reading this.
You have a very skewed (and frankly insulting) view of outsourcers. You seem to forget (or wilfully ignore) the fact that MANY outsourcers are ex-translators themselves, or have worked with language in some capacity, and therefore know their stuff and all the issues involved.
(As I gave the idea Bala liked so much...)
There are some really great translation outsourcers out there. I am their loyal business partner whenever they need my skills. I consider it a privilege working with these every time, and do my best to give them every reason to rejoice on their selection.
However just as there are bad translators everywhere, there are equally bad translation outsourcers around. What makes both bad is often lack of information. Bad translators haven't learned enough on how to translate, bad translation PMs haven't learned enough on the viable options available in a translation project.
Like in any solid partnership, each one may learn a lot from the other. I've had a PM guide me all the way into using "their" cloud-based CAT tool. I taught a PM enough about digital video so we could jointly make a complex DVD project get completed. (AFAIK after that he bought Sony Vegas to edit all his family videos into DVDs.)
Yet among these outsourcers who consider using must-have/be requirements to shun more applicants than they think they can handle, there might be some who could learn a few things. This is not as much about the native-speaker 'label' as it is about having them see beyond the constraints they created by clicking away on as many 'must' requirements as they thought it would be necessary to make their job easier, albeit potentially less effective in some cases.
The messages system I suggested should cover that gap beautifully. And if any outsourcer just wants to squelch what they'd consider "the delusional musings from translators who dare to work from their native language into another one", they will be fully empowered to do so, while remaining anonymous.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 00:51
иврит => английский
| I don't think I was generalizing.... | Aug 2, 2013 |
I never claimed that ALL outsourcers were one thing or another. I have no doubt there are some lousy outsourcers out there - although when they are lousy it's not necessarily to do with a lack of information or knowledge.
Doesn't the ability to send the outsourcer messages kind of circumvent the whole point of having requirements and filters? What's the point if any Tom, Dick or Harry can just start messaging them. They'll have to sift through the legitimate applications and a mount... See more I never claimed that ALL outsourcers were one thing or another. I have no doubt there are some lousy outsourcers out there - although when they are lousy it's not necessarily to do with a lack of information or knowledge.
Doesn't the ability to send the outsourcer messages kind of circumvent the whole point of having requirements and filters? What's the point if any Tom, Dick or Harry can just start messaging them. They'll have to sift through the legitimate applications and a mountain of messages from people not meeting the criteria they requested. Yes, they could just ignore them but then isn't that just Proz-sponsored spamming?
[Edited at 2013-08-02 21:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not as I envision it | Aug 2, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Doesn't the ability to send the outsourcer messages kind of circumvent the whole point of having requirements and filters? What's the point if any Tom, Dick or Harry can just start messaging them. They'll have to sift through the legitimate applications and a mountain of messages from people not meeting the criteria they requested. Yes, they could just ignore them but then isn't that just Proz-sponsored spamming?
The message would be limited to 200 characters of plain text. No CVs, no attachments, no rigmarole. And yet the job poster can access the sender's Proz profile with a click, while the sender will only know who that job poster is if their note is ever replied. These messages would be handled by Proz's internal messaging system, so the job poster can see them onscreen, and delete or file them with a click. No clutter in anyone's regular e-mail inbox. And it would be quite easy to limit each sender (who must be logged in to do it) to ONE message per job post.
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Kay Denney
Франция
Local time: 01:51
французский => английский
| Why go to so much trouble? | Aug 2, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
Doesn't the ability to send the outsourcer messages kind of circumvent the whole point of having requirements and filters? What's the point if any Tom, Dick or Harry can just start messaging them. They'll have to sift through the legitimate applications and a mountain of messages from people not meeting the criteria they requested. Yes, they could just ignore them but then isn't that just Proz-sponsored spamming?
The message would be limited to 200 characters of plain text. No CVs, no attachments, no rigmarole. And yet the job poster can access the sender's Proz profile with a click, while the sender will only know who that job poster is if their note is ever replied. These messages would be handled by Proz's internal messaging system, so the job poster can see them onscreen, and delete or file them with a click. No clutter in anyone's regular e-mail inbox. And it would be quite easy to limit each sender (who must be logged in to do it) to ONE message per job post.
Why go to so much trouble?
Honestly, as a former PM, I would have run right away from Proz if I got bombarded with missives from Bala et al after specifying that I didn't want their services. I mean, I click to say "native speakers only", then I get inundated with messsages from non-natives upbraiding me and telling me to modify my policy forthwith? It was my boss who decided on the natives only policy (although on this point at least I agreed whole-heartedly). Had I wanted to get a non-native on the job I would have had to persuade him. Given the trouble I had convincing him that I could send e-mails along the lines of "here is your translation" I doubt I could have got him to budge on that one.
| | | | | Are we there yet? | Aug 2, 2013 |
When I see comments such as “that ‘cesspool’ of the mammoth thread” or “…they would continue merrily on the path to disaster on the backs of their favoured native translators”, I promise myself to allow them to shout to the top of their lungs, as much as they want. I have better things to do.
José, however, has a proposal that might, just might, be workable. True, the method may seem intrusive to some job posters. “What part of “NO” (No, I do not want to hear fr... See more When I see comments such as “that ‘cesspool’ of the mammoth thread” or “…they would continue merrily on the path to disaster on the backs of their favoured native translators”, I promise myself to allow them to shout to the top of their lungs, as much as they want. I have better things to do.
José, however, has a proposal that might, just might, be workable. True, the method may seem intrusive to some job posters. “What part of “NO” (No, I do not want to hear from “non-natives”!) you did not understand?” This can, probably, be handled with a polite cover letter from ProZ explaining that native language is not the end of all inquiries; that the poster might benefit from this additional and free info; and concluding that, at the end of the day, the poster can just simply delete the free offer with a single keystroke.
A more serious problem is that once the “ floodgates” are opened, the job poster will be flooded with zillion 200-character messages, through ProZ’s portal, which, of course, ProZ cannot and should not vet, offering services based on a faulty self-appraisal of the “applicant’s” own linguistic abillities. Haven’t you ever heard the statement: “The worst thing that can happen if you apply/comment is that they say no?” Frankly, José, we are still far from behaving ethically.
Luis ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
Индия
Local time: 06:21
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => хинди
+ ...
ЛОКАЛИЗАТОР САЙТА | Insufficient research | Aug 3, 2013 |
Most of these notions about the linguistic abilities of native translators being superior are based on research finding primarily done on monolingual native speakers of languages. To what extent they apply to translators (who are in many cases bilingual) and who professionally and systematically and with great personal motivation address the task of acquiring linguistic abilities and who continually hone their skills during the course of their everyday work, is something on which current researc... See more Most of these notions about the linguistic abilities of native translators being superior are based on research finding primarily done on monolingual native speakers of languages. To what extent they apply to translators (who are in many cases bilingual) and who professionally and systematically and with great personal motivation address the task of acquiring linguistic abilities and who continually hone their skills during the course of their everyday work, is something on which current research findings throw scanty light.
I think it would be worthwhile if proz.com or some professional body, or even translators who are doing higher studies in linguistics take up this topic for further research and come up with suitable recommendations.
Only that can loosen entrenched myths like the one we are discussing. But then, some myths are extremely hard to put down and only the passing away of an entire generation brought up under that myth can change things. Often, even that doesn't work because of the tendency of myths being handed down and getting reinforced as they travel down generations. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
Индия
Local time: 06:21
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => хинди
+ ...
ЛОКАЛИЗАТОР САЙТА | The formula of business success | Aug 3, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
... "formulaic approach" (whatever that means)
This is the formula:
1. Get native translator
2. Pay low rates
3. Don't talk about fidelity to source
4. Reap big profit
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| | Balasubramaniam L.
Индия
Local time: 06:21
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => хинди
+ ...
ЛОКАЛИЗАТОР САЙТА | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 00:51
иврит => английский
| No source text in what you are referring to | Aug 3, 2013 |
That thread is about a website which is entirely in English and probably originally written IN ENGLISH, so you can't really talk about fidelity to source when it's far from clear there even was a source (and it's likely there wasn't).
[Edited at 2013-08-03 07:13 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
Франция
Local time: 01:51
французский => английский
| It's the non-natives who work for less | Aug 3, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
... "formulaic approach" (whatever that means)
This is the formula:
1. Get native translator
2. Pay low rates
3. Don't talk about fidelity to source
4. Reap big profit
Except that in the language everyone wants to claim as native (English), it's the non-native speakers who are offering lower prices.
Here's a very typical conversation with a potential client:
- So X told me you did a wonderful job on their annual report and we would really like to have you translate our website, but your rate is way too high
- I'm sorry I can't budge on my rate, it's what I do for a living, I can't tell my bank that I really love their banking style but I can't afford their interest rates on my mortgage, can I?
- But our budget is €YYY
- Then either I can translate ZZZ words of your website for that amount, or you can ask your boss to double the budget, or you can find another translator.
- I was given the name of this woman in India who worked for even less but in fact her native language is some southern Indian language, not even Hindi*.
- Native speakers of English do tend to live in countries with a higher cost of living, that's why we are more expensive. And the work we deliver is eminently more readable for native English speakers.
-...
- well it's your decision. Only please do not think that if this Indian woman does a cack-handed job that I can then brush it up afterwards, I don't proofread translations by non-native speakers.
* not sure why being a native speaker of Hindi would be any better but hey, it's only yet another sign of failure to think logically!
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Tatty
Local time: 01:51
испанский => английский
+ ...
| Crazy comments | Aug 3, 2013 |
on the other thread. The sentence is well constructed and the whole paragraph is well written. The problem arose because the person who originally criticised it either misread or failed to understand it.
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Аргентина
Local time: 21:51
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => испанский
| Some considerations | Aug 4, 2013 |
Many players in the language industry consider that being a native speaker of the target language is an important factor (among several others) in the selection of a translator for a given job.
Other players consider that the condition of native speaker should be less relevant, or not relevant at all.
There are even different considerations on the definition of "native language".
It is very likely that some translators will deliver translation of inferior q... See more Many players in the language industry consider that being a native speaker of the target language is an important factor (among several others) in the selection of a translator for a given job.
Other players consider that the condition of native speaker should be less relevant, or not relevant at all.
There are even different considerations on the definition of "native language".
It is very likely that some translators will deliver translation of inferior quality in spite of being native speakers of the target language.
It is very likely that some translators will deliver translation of apropriate quality in spite of not being native speakers of the target language.
ProZ.com enables translators to declare up to two native languages, using the definition they consider appropriate.
ProZ.com also enables outsourcers to include the condition of native speaker of a given language among the considerations to select a translator in a directory search, or in the filter of a posted job.
When an outsourcer has selected to filter a posted job only to translators who have declared in their profiles that they are native speakers of the target language, ProZ.com would not let translators who do not comply with this, and other requirements selected by the outsourcer, to override these selection. As stated in point 6 of our guiding principles, the person with the need (in this case the job poster) sets the parameters.
Some outsourcers sometimes make mistakes when selecting the native language or other field(s), but this should not be relevant to this discussion.
Repeating a statement many times does not make it "more true".
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
Индия
Local time: 06:21
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => хинди
+ ...
ЛОКАЛИЗАТОР САЙТА | No it doesn't appear to be originally written in English | Aug 4, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
That thread is about a website which is entirely in English and probably originally written IN ENGLISH, so you can't really talk about fidelity to source when it's far from clear there even was a source (and it's likely there wasn't).
No Ty, the write-ups don't appear to be originally written in English. I noticed the same issues with the Hindi text too which was full of factual errors. It appears that those write-ups were originally prepared by the language experts teaching their language in that language and were then translated into English by some native speaker. Or, the language teachers themselves prepared the language write-ups in English but these were then edited by a native English speaker. The native English editor concentrated on the texts reading naturally in English, but sacrificed semantic fidelity, because no editor can be expected to have source culture knowledge of two dozen world languages.
So the write-ups in that website do illustrate what can happen when the translator/editor does not have source culture/language knowledge.
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