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Великобритания
Local time: 01:07
португальский => английский
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| Does something have to be illegal to be wrong? | Aug 8, 2013 |
I'm not sure about the legality of misrepresentation either.
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I've said many times in my posts that I don't care if one translates into Mongolian, if they can do a good job. The reality is that most non natives do a terrible job... or maybe you can tell me that this is not true? Let's not argue about nativeness, please. You can call it whatever you like... most clients select the "natives" button because - like it or not - this is a fact. There are far more natives translators that do a good job than non-natives. You might not like it, but this is your problem. People can claim two natives languages on Proz, so all this discrimination talk is also just hot air.
Yet many natives do a terrible job too. The only caution is to avoid overreliance in demanding natives, believing that nothing can go wrong with any of them.
It's all in statistics. While demanding native speakers - whatever they are - will lower to some extent the probability of getting a bad translation, it's not a sure-fire standalone solution.
The most striking example I saw was one agency's whose site I visited years ago:
Their home page said: We only hire translators working exclusively into their native language.
Their recruitment page said: If you charge US 5¢ per word or more, please don't waste your time nor ours with your application.
As I don't recall its name, I don't know whether they are still in business.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Yet many natives do a terrible job too. The only caution is to avoid overreliance in demanding natives, believing that nothing can go wrong with any of them.
we've said it many times too. There are many unprofessional natives but, statistically, natives do a better job... and, as I said many times before, this is confirmed by the market.
| | | | | Which misrepresentation -- first the Supreme Court would have to define what | Aug 8, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I'm not sure about the legality of misrepresentation either.
native language is, which they will never do -- only then you could talk about any misrepresentation. If you understand a word a different way it is still not enough to charge anyone with misrepresentation , especially in the case of words that don't mean anything in fact. The truth is that for many people L1 and the dominant language are not the same -- this is why native language is a totally useless term. Many translators are bilingual, trilingual and perhaps even just multilingual -- this is why this word makes even less sense. A person who speaks one language well usually knows what their "native language' is. If you have only one hair you don't have to go go to a hairdresser.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 13:58 GMT]
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| I hold it is not all nonsense | Aug 8, 2013 |
the native language thing.
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
some delicate issues of the so called "native language" is like talking about harmony of a musical piece to a painter who cannot stand classical music. You simply don't feel it, so what can I do. It might be your traditional, conservative approach to things, but it really feels like talking to my grandmother (nothing related to age) that there really is no such a law anywhere that women should wear hats if they go outside anywhere in Europe. Some people just accept only the most extreme extreme traditionalism .
It makes a difference if you claim to wear a hat when you are not. Do you feel it?
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
... Many teachers of English as a second language have very distinct accents -- as a result of speaking other languages from their childhood. Some are apparently good teachers -- I don't know -- I would have to do some research among the people who studied English as a second language in the US. They are allowed to teach at least.
As is apparent from your quote (especially the parts I highlighted), there is a difference between learning a language as a child or teenager and acquisition of a language at a later age. I hold it's not just the accent that's different. Now try to relate it to our profession.
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is all nonsense basically, the native language thing, ...
Lilian, that's no basis for a debate that's been ongoing.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 14:51 GMT]
| | | | | A hat is different -- it is something real, and tangible | Aug 8, 2013 |
easy to define. I am sorry, if I slightly overdid it -- but no harm was meant. It is just hard sometimes to convince someone with very conservative views about many things on the avant side.
As to those teachers -- they might be great teachers, but I think they learned English in college most likely, plus many are speakers of such languages as Chinese -- very different from English, some Indian languages, Russian. I am pretty sure they also speak those languages at home, at least t... See more easy to define. I am sorry, if I slightly overdid it -- but no harm was meant. It is just hard sometimes to convince someone with very conservative views about many things on the avant side.
As to those teachers -- they might be great teachers, but I think they learned English in college most likely, plus many are speakers of such languages as Chinese -- very different from English, some Indian languages, Russian. I am pretty sure they also speak those languages at home, at least to some extent. Many high school English teachers, with negligible accents, were not born here.. I know at least three such teachers. Some of the people born here also speak with an accent -- so accent is not really an indication of anything,
[Edited at 2013-08-08 15:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | native speaker option is one of many filters | Aug 8, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
It's all in statistics. While demanding native speakers - whatever they are - will lower to some extent the probability of getting a bad translation, it's not a sure-fire standalone solution.
I at least never claimed it is, i.e a sure-fire standalone solution. Do you believe a client will use the native speaker option as the only filter and then choose the very first translator on the list? Or would it make sense that a professional client will tick other filters as well and maybe even visit profile pages? I do believe that, most of the time, there are good reasons to ask for a native speaker, among other things.
But what I don't think is right if someone claims to be a native speaker when it's very unlikely they are.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 15:09 GMT]
| | | | | real and tangible | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
easy to define. I am sorry, if I slightly overdid it -- but no harm was meant. It is just hard sometimes to convince someone with very conservative views about many things on the avant side.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 15:00 GMT]
that's what native language is to me. I even defined it, many times.
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| It is not to most modern linguists | Aug 8, 2013 |
who do research on multilingual societies.
| | | | | exposure is key | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Some of the people born here also speak with an accent -- so accent is not really an indication of anything,
Really? It's a sign of exposure to certain languages - no matter where you were exposed to them. Many Spanish-speaking Americans were first exposed to Spanish in their homes wherever that is/was. If they are kids, they will most likely also become native English speakers without an accent if they continue living in the US. But it depends on the exposure, the education, the social environment, ...
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 01:07
иврит => английский
| "Modern Linguists" | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is not to most modern linguists who do research on multilingual societies.
Like the guys over at Language Log, who use the term all the time.
| | | | | Let me just make sure | Aug 8, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Some of the people born here also speak with an accent -- so accent is not really an indication of anything,
Really? It's a sign of exposure to certain languages - no matter where you were exposed to them. Many Spanish-speaking Americans were first exposed to Spanish in their homes wherever that is/was. If they are kids, they will most likely also become native English speakers without an accent if they continue living in the US. But it depends on the exposure, the education, the social environment, ...
So you believe that the people who were born in the US to Spanish-speaking parents and spoke mostly Spanish at home for the first 5 or 6 years are native speakers of Spanish, the same way as the children of Turkish-speaking parents, even if born in Germany, are native speakers of Turkish, only? You mentioned that there might be exceptions, of course, depending on their education and social status.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 15:26 GMT]
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| whatever they are exposed to | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
So you believe that the people who were born in the US to Spanish-speaking parents and spoke mostly Spanish at home for the first 5 or 6 years are native speakers of Spanish, the same way as the children of Turkish-speaking parents, even if born in Germany, are native speakers of Turkish, only? You mentioned that there might be exceptions, of course, depending on their education and social status.
Yes. That doesn't preclude them from being able to later on become native speakers of English or German, as long as they are exposed to it during a certain age. But if they are not exposed to German or English, how could they pick it up?
[Edited at 2013-08-08 15:47 GMT]
| | | | | No, like the ones who do research | Aug 8, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is not to most modern linguists who do research on multilingual societies.
Like the guys over at Language Log, who use the term all the time.
and appear at various conferences.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 01:07
иврит => английский
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is not to most modern linguists who do research on multilingual societies.
Like the guys over at Language Log, who use the term all the time.
like the ones who do research and appear at various conferences.
Like the guys over at Language Log, who use the term all the time.
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