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| | | The reason why we don't write them? | Jul 27, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
BTW, when job posters use the native button, why don't you write to them to tell them what you have so eloquently expressed in this thread? They might appreciate your writing skills and get back to you, for example. Sometimes, every little helps, as Mr Tesco would say!
Simply because we can't!!!
Proz is set up in a way that if the outsourcer sets some must-have requirement, the translator who doesn't match it on their profile will not have a clue on who that outsourcer is.
Now and then I tip the Proz staff about impossible requirements, and they advise job posters on that.
Some examples, mostly real:
1.
JOB: EN-PT sworn translation valid in Brazil for official purposes
MUST be US citizen and resident
Point: Brazilian law on sworn translations requires licensed translators to be citizens and residents of Brazil
2.
JOB: Video translation for dubbing - no script available
MUST have Trados
Point: No CAT tool will be of any help here
3. (this is the only fabricated one, I can't recall what was the software)
JOB: Translation of a scanned PDF file into a DOC file
MUST have FrameMaker, InDesign, and Excel
Point: Unrelated software
Any translator not matching the MUST requirement(s) will be automatically prevented by Proz from discovering ANY of the job poster's details.
So demanding that it MUST be a native speaker of the target language will automatically banish, say, a very competent translator who fails to claim being a native speaker on their profile, in spite of being an acknowledged specialist in translating that very rare subject area. So even if it were worthwhile to have some potentially light proofreading done by a native afterwards, this outsourcer will be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
This is how it works at Proz. Whether job-posting outsourcers are properly advised on this risk or not, I wouldn't know.
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LilianBNekipelo wrote:
There are very few people who can write anything more serious in such languages as Polish, Russian or Lithuanian, in my experience, and I am sure many other languages, if they did not learn these languages in their childhood and went to schools where these languages were the languages of instruction.
In other words, translators who are not native speakers of these languages should not translate into them?
| | | | | Everybody should translate into the language they are able to translate into well, | Jul 27, 2013 |
and which activity gives them not only money but also pleasure. I don't have any strict rules about anything in life. If you know Polish well, or Russian, or another language, please translate into it, if you translation can be fixed easily by a proofreader, if just the style is slightly off which may happen with any translation, native or non-native, but otherwise the translation is accurate, and there are no major mistakes there. I think there are not too many people raised outside of Polan... See more and which activity gives them not only money but also pleasure. I don't have any strict rules about anything in life. If you know Polish well, or Russian, or another language, please translate into it, if you translation can be fixed easily by a proofreader, if just the style is slightly off which may happen with any translation, native or non-native, but otherwise the translation is accurate, and there are no major mistakes there. I think there are not too many people raised outside of Poland, who will be able to do it, but there might be some, and thus there should not be any strict rules about it.
Maybe if they had MTV, Hollywood movies in Polish shown also all over the world, the task of a non-Polish born translator might have been much easier.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 17:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Comprehension exceeds production | Jul 27, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
If you are not a competent writer in the target language, I see no reason why I should believe that you are a competent reader in it.
There is an abundance of research showing that comprehension of language exceeds productive skills.
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Lincoln Hui 
Гонконг
Local time: 02:58
Член ProZ.com
китайский => английский
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| Reading previous posts can be a a good thing | Jul 27, 2013 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Lincoln Hui wrote:
If you are not a competent writer in the target language, I see no reason why I should believe that you are a competent reader in it.
There is an abundance of research showing that comprehension of language exceeds productive skills.
Is there an equal abundance of research concerning the very highest proficiency levels that translators are expected to work in?
Reading requirements for layman are far different from those for self-respecting translators.
| | | | | Receptive and productive language | Jul 27, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Reading requirements for layman are far different from those for self-respecting translators.
I expect that it applies to an even greater degree to translators since translators are often required to read and understand things in their source texts that the average person would not understand, thereby increasing their vocabulary beyond what they need to actively use, unless of course they are also translating into that language, in which case they should have already acquired the necessary terminology.
The fact remains that receptive language exceeds - and generally precedes - productive language. This is true of the native language and even more so for a second language.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
Индия
Local time: 00:28
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => хинди
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ЛОКАЛИЗАТОР САЙТА | Native language connundrum and international languages | Jul 28, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
And as I have also said previously, as in every profession, translators know very little about their profession as a whole outside of their very, very small circle of expertise. I'm sure you will agree that Italian education is not nearly as widespread as English, nor nearly as frequently used outside its core geography. It stands to reason then that someone for whom English is a second langauge is far more likely to have learned it from childhood, far more likely to use it on a regular basis, and far more likely to be proficient in it, than someone for whom Italian is a second language. (I have not verified this assumption, of course).
This issue repeatedly comes up in these discussions. International languages, particularly English, have spread so extensively over the globe that even statistical probability, which G. keeps bringing up, of finding native-level proficient non-native translators is quite high.
So generalizations such as only natives can produce quality translations cuts even less ice in these languages, particularly English.
These international languages, and again particularly English, also challenge accepted wisdom about language acquisition that native-level competency in a language can only be acquired when a child grows up amidst a group of native speakers of the language. Most Indians, and most other former colonial subjects, don't enjoy this situation, yet many of them acquire competency in English that is equal to or superior to that of the average native English speaker. Some go even further (like Salman Rushdie or V.S. Naipaul) and win prestigious literature prizes such as the Booker Prize or even the Nobel Prize.
All this confirms that we urgently need to revisit our myths about the connection between native language and translation, at least for international languages like English.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Replies to a hidden post |
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| Done a search... | Jul 28, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Born in Italy, and educated there? I doubt it. More like 50, perhaps. There are about 300 million Americans, and I am not even sure if here, there will be 100 Polish to English translators, born in the US.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 16:11 GMT]
PL>IT, mother tongue declared, educated and living in Italy here on Proz. Result: 65. This is just Proz, which represents a tiny percentage.
As far as the USA are concerned, you have to remember that we are in Europe and it takes one-two hours from anywhere in Europe to get to Poland - I'm sure you know this. So, it's not surprising that a lot more people choose to study Polish. Poland is round the corner... you can visit, stay, study, work there...
[Edited at 2013-07-28 06:58 GMT]
| | | | | to cap it off... | Jul 28, 2013 |
what the pro-non-natives seem to be saying is the following:
non-natives in certain cases can produce work of higher standard than natives, especially when an International language like English is involved or in very minor language pairs.
But in other main languages (let's say FIGS), this is less likely.
Correct?
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Великобритания
Local time: 18:58
португальский => английский
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| Facts and figures | Jul 28, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
There are about 300 million Americans, and I am not even sure if here, there will be 100 Polish to English translators, born in the US.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 16:11 GMT]
118 PL>EN translators living in the US who are members of the ATA, which I assume will be a fraction of the total number in that language combination nationwide. I don't see that their country of birth has any relevance.
| | | | | Children, children... | Jul 28, 2013 |
... isn't it time you all agreed to differ?
This debate on native/non-native crops up with soul-destroying frequency. The same old hackneyed and very tired arguments. Neither side ever gives an inch. Occasionally, as this time round, you get a new player and the whole cycle starts over again.
A recent article in the SFT journal "Traduire" (June 2013) contained a section explaining the position of the different Translator Associations across the world (basically N. Ameri... See more ... isn't it time you all agreed to differ?
This debate on native/non-native crops up with soul-destroying frequency. The same old hackneyed and very tired arguments. Neither side ever gives an inch. Occasionally, as this time round, you get a new player and the whole cycle starts over again.
A recent article in the SFT journal "Traduire" (June 2013) contained a section explaining the position of the different Translator Associations across the world (basically N. America + Europe). It was interesting to note that, although the principle of nativeness was put forward, many of the definitions allowed a little leeway.
Ultimately what these organisations want, and what the market needs, is people capable of delivering a good job, on time and at a fair price. And "fair price" does not mean the same thing as "cut" price.
I am well aware that the whole "native" debate is always sparked by fear of "unfair" competition from places with cheaper costs of living. The problem is that, whatever the ultimate outcome, there will always be people (perhaps just beginners) who will undercut the more expensive translators in the hope of finding work. Garbage in, garbage out.
Never forget that water has a habit of finding its level. Do what you think is right. If you feel competent in your L2 and consider it the equivalent of your L1, and if you can find clients prepared to pay well enough for your services, you'll soon find out if the market is happy with your work and ready to offer you more. If you are afraid of being done out of business by the less qualified, then specialise, offer that extra something (proof-reading, correction of originals, original writing, etc.) that will set you apart from the crowd.
Rather than moaning and complaining about something you can't change, do something positive to increase your market share. If you're hoping that, by shaming the offenders, they'll go away of their own accord, you really are wasting your time.
Unfortunately any site that allows/encourages/promotes/facilitates bottom-feeding and crowd-sourcing is bound to end up as a wailing wall. But couldn't we just let this issue drop for a while? All grow up and adopt a more mature attitude? Here's hoping.....
Have a good Sunday ▲ Collapse
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| 65 sounds about right, but not 600 | Jul 28, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Born in Italy, and educated there? I doubt it. More like 50, perhaps. There are about 300 million Americans, and I am not even sure if here, there will be 100 Polish to English translators, born in the US.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 16:11 GMT]
PL>IT, mother tongue declared, educated and living in Italy here on Proz. Result: 65. This is just Proz, which represents a tiny percentage.
As far as the USA are concerned, you have to remember that we are in Europe and it takes one-two hours from anywhere in Europe to get to Poland - I'm sure you know this. So, it's not surprising that a lot more people choose to study Polish. Poland is round the corner... you can visit, stay, study, work there... [Edited at 2013-07-28 06:58 GMT]
I would still think about 50-80% of those are the people born in Poland with dominant Italian (moved to Italy quite early and were educated there), not with Italian as their L1.
There is a much larger Polish, old times, immigration in the US, especially in Chicago, compared to many European countries, so there should be quite a few US born Polish to English translators, but there are not really too many, just exceptions. I would think within 100 people, out of 316,000,000, approximately.
118 sounds about right -- for the whole country -- Proz really represents the country's average, I think.
[Edited at 2013-07-28 09:03 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post | | No -- it is not pure guessing. | Jul 28, 2013 |
I know quite a lot of translators, linguists, university language teachers, and people like that, and over the last 25 years I have not met anyone who would speak Polish well -- a person born in the US, or another country, nor have I met any translators from Polish whose L1 was English, or another language, and who have learned Polish just in college. Isn't it strange? If you can prove my theory to the contrary, please do. Do you have any research, or experience? I have only known one Russian-bo... See more I know quite a lot of translators, linguists, university language teachers, and people like that, and over the last 25 years I have not met anyone who would speak Polish well -- a person born in the US, or another country, nor have I met any translators from Polish whose L1 was English, or another language, and who have learned Polish just in college. Isn't it strange? If you can prove my theory to the contrary, please do. Do you have any research, or experience? I have only known one Russian-born person who speaks quite good Polish -- I am not sure if she can write properly in Polish. It is a different alphabet, plus the diacritical marks, after all.
I have met several "foreign people" who spoke almost perfect Russian -- some African people, and a few Chinese people,who studied in Russia -- medicine, for 5-10 years. Their Russian was very good.
[Edited at 2013-07-28 09:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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