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| | | The person with the need sets the parameters. Please refrain from legal interpretations in the forum | Aug 1, 2013 |
Hello all,
I believe Enrique posted a few pages back on ProZ.com's guiding principles, how "the person with the need sets the parameters" and how this works in relation to job postings and the parameter of native language (or language pair, or specialty, location, and so on).
http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones/
While I'm posting, let me take the opportuni... See more Hello all,
I believe Enrique posted a few pages back on ProZ.com's guiding principles, how "the person with the need sets the parameters" and how this works in relation to job postings and the parameter of native language (or language pair, or specialty, location, and so on).
http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones/
While I'm posting, let me take the opportunity to remind everyone about forum rule 10, which deals with legal interpretations:
http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/10#10
Thanks. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sure the employer or general contractor can ask | Aug 1, 2013 |
you which languages besides English you speak, and even if you speak any particular languages, and at what level. They can even test the level of all the languages you speak -- the only thing they cannot do are any "nativeness" tests or questions.
You can volunteer any information that could help you to make your case -- like tell them how many years you spent in a particular country, that you went to school there.
Not being born in the US cannot prevent you from becoming a ... See more you which languages besides English you speak, and even if you speak any particular languages, and at what level. They can even test the level of all the languages you speak -- the only thing they cannot do are any "nativeness" tests or questions.
You can volunteer any information that could help you to make your case -- like tell them how many years you spent in a particular country, that you went to school there.
Not being born in the US cannot prevent you from becoming a lawyer, a doctor or a senator, and not even a translator. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Nobody claimed that | Aug 1, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Not being born in the US cannot prevent you from becoming a lawyer, a doctor or a senator, and not even a translator.
not being born in the US can prevent you from becoming a lawyer, a doctor or a senator, and not even a translator. Right?
But being born in France, having grown up there and having attended school there might well help you become an excellent translator into French (for France), anywhere in the world. Again, it wouldn't be the only important factor, but it can be one, nevertheless, even one that clinches a project.
[Edited at 2013-08-01 16:29 GMT]
| | | | | Not being born in the US cannot prevent anyone with a legal | Aug 1, 2013 |
status from becoming a lawyer. I think they may have to be permanent residents, not just people on working visas. Of course the person has to have the right qualifications that would make it possible for them to go through the law school and pass the bar exam, but there is not even the slightest question whether anyone would b allowed to test their "nativeness", or the "nativeness"of their language. This would be totally unimaginable.
Since legal questions are not welcome here, I ... See more status from becoming a lawyer. I think they may have to be permanent residents, not just people on working visas. Of course the person has to have the right qualifications that would make it possible for them to go through the law school and pass the bar exam, but there is not even the slightest question whether anyone would b allowed to test their "nativeness", or the "nativeness"of their language. This would be totally unimaginable.
Since legal questions are not welcome here, I will not really answer any more legal questions.
[Edited at 2013-08-01 16:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| No point there | Aug 1, 2013 |
Texte Style wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
The answer to that question might be simpler than that -- the government does not really go checking on various sites -- they have a lot of other work to do.
[Edited at 2013-08-01 12:59 GMT]
Are you inferring that Proz asking us to state native language is actually illegal but they get away with it because the government has other things to do?
Proz is actually letting job posters (scattered worldwide) choose whether they want to discriminate against non-native speakers of countless languages. The illegal act will be actually perpetrated by the job poster. Could this make Proz an accessory? Quite doubtful. Would Proz be aiding and abetting perpetrators potentially outside US jurisdiction? Is it covered by the FCPA? I'd bet it isn't.
This would lead nowhere.
Now, for the amusement of my Prozian colleagues, something blatantly off-topic, however an equally preposterous legal case. I read about it on the leading Brazilian newspaper a few weeks ago.
There was a cabaret in the hinterlands of Northeastern Brazil whose business was booming. The owner decided it was time to build an extension, and she got the construction started. The local church administration feared losing its audience (and income) to the expanded devilish operation, so they gathered all the devouts for an ardent prayer session against the satanic development.
A few days later, a thunderstorm hit that area, and one lightning struck the cabaret, starting a fire which reduced both the building itself and the extension under way to ashes. The cabaret owner filed a lawsuit against that church for damages. The church pleaded innocent; they didn't start the fire, had nothing to do with it.
The assigned judge commented that he had a peculiar case in his hands, which would require very careful thought: On one side I have an infidel woman who thrives on prostitution claiming losses from an act of God; on the other, I have a church asserting that prayers cause no effect whatsoever.
Edited for correction. Grazie, Giovanni. I was influenced by the translation I was working on, which mentioned an "expansion plan".
[Edited at 2013-08-01 19:20 GMT]
| | | | | Funny story... | Aug 1, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The owner decided it was time to build an expansion...
But I think it's called an "extension", at least in British English... 
| | | | Michele Fauble 
США
Local time: 17:53
Член ProZ.com c 2006
норвежский => английский
+ ...
| Legal questions | Aug 1, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Since legal questions are not welcome here, I will not really answer any more legal questions.
I believe only legal questions about Proz.com policies and features are prohibited.
"Legal interpretations and legal challenges to ProZ.com policies and features should not be made in the forums, but sent in writing to ProZ.com headquarters."
http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/10#10
| | | | | Aiming to converge, José | Aug 1, 2013 |
You seem to be saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, or I would be violating the site Rules, that translators’ “non-nativeness” is just part, and maybe just a minor part, of the problem. Natives and non-natives are both unable to render a proper translation in a “sublanguage” or “lengua de especialidad” (Alcaraz-Varó) or “specialization language,” medical, legal, finance, engineering, whatever the language they are translating to or from, if they do not have the proper ... See more You seem to be saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, or I would be violating the site Rules, that translators’ “non-nativeness” is just part, and maybe just a minor part, of the problem. Natives and non-natives are both unable to render a proper translation in a “sublanguage” or “lengua de especialidad” (Alcaraz-Varó) or “specialization language,” medical, legal, finance, engineering, whatever the language they are translating to or from, if they do not have the proper background.
You may also be saying, and again correct me if I am wrong, that by excluding “non-natives”, when the client requests to do so, we might be compounding the problem (regardless the right the client might have to do so), because we are eliminating from consideration those who might have a combined expertise, language and sublanguage, far superior to the Peoria native’s expertise.
On the other hand, my personal experience has been that the average “non-native” translator’s quality ranges from bad to a non-fixable disaster. Granted, I might have been unlucky, and my experience, my statistical sample, might not represent the translator´s population. Yet, I have been offered to translate, from English to Spanish, patent applications, my main area, being a USPTO-Patent Attorney, in my main technical area (I hold a PhD in Chemical Engineering), which had been translated from Japanese to English. “Hum, a tandem translation,” I thought, and asked to see the English document. It was wholly incomprehensible. I rejected the assignment, of course. I could and ought to do so.
On another occasion, I was asked to translate again an English patent application which had been translated to Spanish by an English native translator, a technical translator. The patent examiner, after two years of prosecution, had rejected the application, although he or she gave the applicant the opportunity to refile with a new translation, thank Goodness. Imagine the cost to the inventor: a second translation ($3,000 to $5,000), two years of worthless prosecution ($20,000 to $30,000 attorney´s fees), and a loss of 2 years of patent validity (patents are valid, in general, 20 years from the date of the first filing), whatever those 2 years lost are worth (from $0 to millions).
So, José, what is the solution to this (ProZ situation)? And, as you said, “local” certification is another issue worth of its own thread. If you are certified in your country to translate into a “foreign” language, as it is the case in Brazil or Argentina, for instance, should you be excluded from bidding? The client has the right, but is he, she or it wrong?
[Edited at 2013-08-01 23:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
США
Local time: 16:53
английский => немецкий
+ ...
Памяти | @Lilian: The difference between illegal and appropriate | Aug 2, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Well, perhaps everyone assumes that the information they ask about is on the voluntary basis
As long as you can state whatever you feel is right -- it is Ok, I think. There should also be an option --private. However, no one should be barred from quoting on any jobs based on the so called native language.
The following is an article on About.com/ Job Search, written by a Human Resources Specialist. You will find that while indeed particular questions are illegal for the regular Joe the Plumber, the same questions are far from being "illegal" when they refer to your ability to do the job.
Translators, surgeons, lawyers, law enforcement officers, etc. may not get away that easily. When you read this article, you will notice that there is an exception to everything.
Examples?
- When I hire a chauffeur or a delivery person, I will most definitely ask for any vision impairments or previous DUIs (*despite the circumstance that questions about disabilities and criminal records are illegal)
- When I hire a surgeon, I will most definitely make sure that he has full command over his hand functions (*despite the circumstance that questions about disabilities are illegal)
- When I hire a nanny, I will most definitely ask if the person is a registered sex offender (*despite the circumstance that criminal records are illegal)
- When I hire a linguist, I will absolutely and most definitely ask for his/her native language because this is one of the most basic parts of the job description. Nobody cares about the linguist's ancestry.
To declare that "asking for the native language is illegal" is nonsense. Sorry. Right now, I am helping a friend of mine in Law Enforcement to find a new job in a different state with a lower crime rate because he is considered too fat to run fast enough after bad guys.
Here is the article that might be very helpful:
"How to Answer Illegal Interview Questions
Interview Questions Employers Should Not Ask
By Alison Doyle, About.com Guide
There are many topics which should be off-limits during a job interview. Questions about age, ancestry, citizenship, credit rating, criminal record, disabilities, family status, gender, military discharge, or religion should not be asked directly by an interviewer.
While the intent of these questions may be to determine if you are a good fit for the job, it is important to know that only information relevant to your ability to do the job can and should be asked.
How to Respond When You Are Asked an Illegal Question
If you are asked an illegal interview question, or the questions begin to follow an illegal trend, you always have the option to end the interview, or refuse to answer the question(s). It may be uncomfortable to do, but you need to be comfortable working at the company, and if the questions you are being asked during the interview are indicative of the company's policies, you may be better off finding out now.
Sometimes an interviewer will ask inappropriate questions accidentally, and in that case, you may choose to answer them politely, avoiding the substance of the question, but addressing the intent.
Here's more information on what interviewees can and cannot be asked, and how to respond if you are asked an inappropriate question.
Questions About Age
There are instances where an employer may need to determine an applicant's age. The interviewer can ask a young interviewee if he has appropriate working papers. If the job requires that an applicant is of a legal minimum age for the position (i.e. bartender, etc.), the interviewer can ask as a pre-requisite to employment that proof of age be furnished. If the company has a regular retirement age, they are permitted to ask if the applicant is below that age.
However, an interviewer can't ask your age directly:
How old are you?
When did you graduate?
What is your date of birth?
If faced with these questions you can choose not to answer, or answer with the truthful, if vague, "My age is not an issue for my performance in this job".
Questions About Ancestry
There are few questions legal to ask relating to ancestry and race which are pertinent to employment. During an interview, you may legally be asked, "How many languages are you fluent in?", or "Are you legally eligible to work in the United States?"
Questions such as "Is English your native language?", "Are you a U.S. Citizen?", "Were your parents born in the U.S.?", "What race do you identify yourself as?" are illegal for a person to be asked during an employment interview. Faced with questions such as these, you can refuse to answer, stating simply, "This (these) questions do not affect my ability to perform the job."
Questions About Credit
A prospective employer cannot ask about your financial status or credit rating during the course of an interview. There are limited exceptions to this, if you are applying for certain financial and banking positions. In addition, employers can check the credit of job applicants, with the candidate's permission.
Questions About Criminal Record
During an interview, an interviewer can legally ask about any convicted crimes that relate to the job duties. For example, if you are interviewing for a position that requires handling money or merchandise, you can legally be asked if you have ever been convicted of theft.
During an interview, you cannot be asked about arrests without convictions, or involvement in any political demonstrations. You may choose to tell the interviewer simply, "There is nothing in my past which would affect my ability to perform the duties of this job."
Depending on your state and the type of job for which you are applying, the employer may be able to check your criminal record as part of an employment background check.
Questions About Disability
During an interview, the interviewer may ask questions pertaining to your ability to perform specific tasks, such as "Are you able to safely lift and carry items weighing up to 30 pounds?", or "This position requires standing for the length of your shift, are you able to do that comfortably?" or "Are you able to sit comfortably for the duration of your shift?"
Under no circumstances is a prospective employer allowed to ask your height, weight, or any details regarding any physical or mental limitations you may have, except as they directly relate to the job requirements. If you choose to reply, you can state "I am confident that I will be able to handle the requirements of this position."
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) provides protection for job seekers with disabilities. It is unlawful for an employer to discriminate against a qualified applicant with a disability. The ADA applies to private employers with 15 or more employees, as well as to state and local government employers.
Questions About Family Status
An interviewer can ask questions regarding whether you are able to meet work schedules, or travel for the position. He can ask about how long you expect to stay at a particular job, or with the prospective firm. Whether you anticipate any extended absences can also be asked.
An interviewer can't ask your marital status, if you have children, what your child care situation is, or if you intend to have children (or more children). You cannot be asked about your spouse's occupation or salary. If you choose to answer a question of this kind, a graceful way to answer is to say that you are able to perform all the duties that the position entails.
Questions About Gender
In a face to face interview, it is unlikely that an interviewer will not know your gender, but important that your gender not be taken into account in her assessment of your ability to do the job. You can't be asked your gender during any kind of interview for a position, unless it directly relates to your qualifications for a job, such as an attendant in a rest room, or locker room.
Questions About Military Discharge
An interviewer may ask questions relating to the branch of military in which you served, and your attained rank. It is also legal to ask about any education or experience relating to the position to which you are applying.
You may not be asked about your type of discharge, or about your military records. Questions relating to foreign military service are forbidden as well. If you choose to answer these questions, you can indicate that there is nothing in your records that would impair your ability to succeed in the job.
Questions About Religion
During an interview, an interviewer can ask if you are able to work during the normal hours of operation of the business.
An interviewer cannot ask your religious affiliation, or holidays that you observe. It is illegal to be asked your place of worship, or your beliefs. If you are asked questions of this kind, you may reply that your faith will not interfere with your ability to do the job."
http://jobsearch.about.com/od/interviewsnetworking/a/answer-illegal-questions.htm
| | | | | No, I actually think it might be illegal for an outsourcer, who is a general contractor | Aug 2, 2013 |
in legal terms, to require anything related to ?"nativeness of nay sort in the United States -- I don't know about any other place. A private client who want his or her memoir translated can perhaps choose whoever he wants, but an outsourcer the same responsibilities as an employer. As to different sites -- I think it might be Ok if it is totally voluntary, and does not bar anyone from anything. However, even though I have spent a large part o my life in law firms and courts, among other place... See more in legal terms, to require anything related to ?"nativeness of nay sort in the United States -- I don't know about any other place. A private client who want his or her memoir translated can perhaps choose whoever he wants, but an outsourcer the same responsibilities as an employer. As to different sites -- I think it might be Ok if it is totally voluntary, and does not bar anyone from anything. However, even though I have spent a large part o my life in law firms and courts, among other places, I am not a lawyer, and only a lawyer can give anyone that kind of advice.
Sure you can test a translator if the languages the person claims he or she speaks are at the reqired level, but you cannot test their 'nativeness" in the United Stated, for any purpose. Many Spanish speaking people, let's say, speak with a Spanish accent, or use very distinctive phrases when speaking English, just because they like it, even if they were born here, which does not mean that they are in any way impaired or that they will be using those phrases when translating. You can test their English through a regular test, but you cannot inquire about their family members, which language they speak at home, etc.
The employer does not have to test the driver whether their vision is impaired. If they have a valid drivers license, it means it is Ok, because the Motor Vehicle Department is authorized to check that.
I think the article you mentioned is stretching it, since the author most likely has some kind of an agenda.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 10:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
США
Local time: 16:53
английский => немецкий
+ ...
Памяти | @Lilian: Well, then... | Aug 2, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
No, I actually think it might be illegal for an outsourcer, who is a general contractor
in legal terms, to require anything related to ?"nativeness of nay sort in the United States -- I don't know about any other place. A private client who want his or her memoir translated can perhaps choose whoever he wants, but an outsourcer the same responsibilities as an employer. As to different sites -- I think it might be Ok if it is totally voluntary, and does not bar anyone from anything. However, even though I have spent a large part o my life in law firms and courts, among other places, I am not a lawyer, and only a lawyer can give anyone that kind of advice.
You know, the US don't even have an official language. So, as soon as you get hold of a real lawyer, you eventually can keep us updated about the issue of linguists withholding their greatest asset - their native language, because asking for your strongest USP apparently is against the law. Seriously.
| | | | | Oh -- you do not have to withhold anything. | Aug 2, 2013 |
You could tell them: I was born in X, and I went to the best classical language high school in the region, etc. They just cannot ask you where you were born, what your mother tongue is, which language your parents spoke, etc., not to mention any nativeness testing. It has to be the same kind of test that they would administer to everyone, regardless of their place of birth, and they would only be allowed to count mistakes, not any native type of mistakes v. non-native, whatever that is supposed... See more You could tell them: I was born in X, and I went to the best classical language high school in the region, etc. They just cannot ask you where you were born, what your mother tongue is, which language your parents spoke, etc., not to mention any nativeness testing. It has to be the same kind of test that they would administer to everyone, regardless of their place of birth, and they would only be allowed to count mistakes, not any native type of mistakes v. non-native, whatever that is supposed to mean.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 10:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
США
Local time: 16:53
английский => немецкий
+ ...
Памяти | @Lilian: Maybe it's time to let go | Aug 2, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
You could tell them: I was born in X, and I went to the best classical language high school in the region, etc. They just cannot ask you where you were born, what your mother tongue is, which language your parents spoke, etc., not to mention any nativeness testing. It has to be the same kind of test that they would administer to everyone, regardless of their place of birth, and they would only be allowed to count mistakes, not any native type of mistakes v. non-native, whatever that is supposed to mean.
My little company is small, but is an established corporation with several shareholders (yes, we are an "Inc.", with takes some effort and is only approved by the feds after two years of solid business operations. Aside from us shareholders, we also have interns and a full-time employee. We can ask them whatever we wish, as long as the information is relevant to the job description and as long as we are asking for nothing but the prerequisites. I am free to ask any prospective employee if he/she is a native speaker of English, because this person will be in charge of invoicing and correspondence. I also require brilliant and sophisticated American English over the phone and a good and friendly voice. I also require impeccable manners and communication skills. I require flawless American English to represent our office in written and verbal communications. Liars who turned out to be dishonest during the interview will be fired on the spot (happened only once).
Oh boy, now I better turn myself in to the police for all my illegal requests...
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 00:53
иврит => английский
| On a road to nowhere.... | Aug 2, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Oh boy, now I better turn myself in to the police for all my illegal requests...
Lol, I tried explaining this to her a bazillion times. I'm not a lawyer, but even a cursory glance through the web throws up problems to Liliana's "everything is illegal" stance:
1. Freelancers aren't employees.
2. The concept of "reasonable business need" - The GET OUT OF JAIL CARD (well the "avoid-jail-altogether" card for many of the relevant US laws) - I'd say asking language related questions when language is at the heart of the work is a pretty solid "reasonable business need".
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 00:53
иврит => английский
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
but an outsourcer [has] the same responsibilities as an employer
*Addition in quote is mine
This just isn't correct. An outsourcer is not an employer. We are not employees. I've even signed contracts with new outsourcers explicitly stating "...shall not constitute an employer-employee relationship between the parties...".
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