| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Wanted: Black women English to Dutch translators
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| | Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 23:30
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
| I can't be bothered trying to think up a title | Mar 5, 2021 |
Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
So, if someone is Dutch spoken word artist, that makes them automatically excellent and experienced translators of American English, too?.
That reminds me of the hilarious recurring scene in "Family Guy" featuring foreign guys that almost sound American.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMHEsE8bO7k
[Edited at 2021-03-05 11:28 GMT]
| | | | | Why poets translate poets | Mar 12, 2021 |
Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
So, if someone is Dutch spoken word artist, that makes them automatically excellent and experienced translators of American English, too?
Writing and translating are different "fields", I would say.
This is just poor inference because there there was no suggestion that anything, least of excellence, follows anything else automatically, or even that the choice of the Dutch translator was wrong. The suggestion is simply that poets working in given areas, in terms of style and subject matter, might be more suited (although this is neither automatic nor imperative) to translating poets working in the same areas.
As you helpfully point out, writing and translating are different fields. However, literary translation and in particular translation of poetry are also subject to somewhat different conventions to those governing translation in general.
This is why a poet was chosen to translate Gorman's work, rather than a professional translator. Poets aren't always chosen to translate poetry, but this is very often the case (although being a poet doesn't make you an automatically excellent and experienced translator of American English, or any other source language, either). In fact not infrequently, knowledge of the source language and experience as a translator are seen as secondary to a poet's ability to create an equivalent in the target language by revocation of the spirit of the source. This would be the case of Hugh MacDiarmid's celebrated translations from Russian, which he didn't speak.
| | | | neilmac
Испания
Local time: 00:30
испанский => английский
+ ...
| "First they came for..." | Mar 12, 2021 |
Apparently the Catalan translator originally booked for the job has also now been "cancelled". It appears career activist Janice Deul has truly opened up a can of worms with her meddling.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56340162
| | | | Jo Macdonald 
Испания
Local time: 00:30
Член ProZ.com c 2005
итальянский => английский
+ ...
| To fight/encourage racism | Mar 12, 2021 |
Well if the idea is to fight racism they're not doing a very good job, discrimination makes people more racist.
For the sake of equality perhaps they should invite a young male redneck headbanger to the next event and specify they only want WASP blokes in on the job.
Then again when a lot of people tear down the statue of a slaver and next day others on the radio are saying they were wrong to do so, it's easy to see how deeply ingrained racism is in society so perhaps ... See more Well if the idea is to fight racism they're not doing a very good job, discrimination makes people more racist.
For the sake of equality perhaps they should invite a young male redneck headbanger to the next event and specify they only want WASP blokes in on the job.
Then again when a lot of people tear down the statue of a slaver and next day others on the radio are saying they were wrong to do so, it's easy to see how deeply ingrained racism is in society so perhaps we are not in fact ready for change. ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 00:30
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
| Surely the proof is in the pudding | Mar 12, 2021 |
The BBC article says "Critics said it was not just about skin colour, but identity too. This was not simply about translation, but whether Gorman's poetry could be accurately reflected, interpreted by someone of a different ethnicity, genre, and mother tongue." but it should be easy to answer that question: simply show us the translation, and let us (and those who criticize) evaluate it.
It's one thing to claim that only a black person can correctly translate a text, but if that is ... See more The BBC article says "Critics said it was not just about skin colour, but identity too. This was not simply about translation, but whether Gorman's poetry could be accurately reflected, interpreted by someone of a different ethnicity, genre, and mother tongue." but it should be easy to answer that question: simply show us the translation, and let us (and those who criticize) evaluate it.
It's one thing to claim that only a black person can correctly translate a text, but if that is true (and if those who say so truly believe it), then... show us. Show us how the translation by a non-black person is lacking. But they won't do that (they can't!), because for them the principle is more important than the truth, and if there is any danger that the truth could contradict the principle, then (so they say) it's best to simply avoid the truth.
[Edited at 2021-03-12 17:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Philip Lees
Греция
Local time: 01:30
греческий (новогреческий) => английский
| Done and dusted | Mar 13, 2021 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
This was not simply about translation, but whether Gorman's poetry could be accurately reflected, interpreted by someone of a different ethnicity, genre, and mother tongue." but it should be easy to answer that question: simply show us the translation, and let us (and those who criticize) evaluate it.
Absolutely right. This time the translator had completed the work before being sacked. Was his translation substandard? If so in what way?
I agree with Samuel that we're never going to find that out, because if the translation was fine, that would be too embarrassing for the politically correct brigade.
I hope that at least Víctor Obiols got paid for his work. And I wonder how they're getting on finding "a female activist with African-American origins" who also speaks fluent Catalan and is capable of translating poetry.
Good luck with that one.
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Нидерланды
Local time: 00:30
английский => итальянский
+ ...
| Saving my indignation | Mar 13, 2021 |
Philip Lees wrote:
I hope that at least Víctor Obiols got paid for his work. And I wonder how they're getting on finding "a female activist with African-American origins" who also speaks fluent Catalan and is capable of translating poetry.
Good luck with that one.
Well, apparently the publisher promised to pay him, but we know that's not the only point:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/10/not-suitable-catalan-translator-for-amanda-gorman-poem-removed
And yes, good luck with that one. I wonder what they're going to do in countries where the majority, if not 99% of the population is white, like in the Baltic Republics. And what about China, Japan, Vietnam, just to name a few other places? Do their experiences of racial discrimination and colonialism match those of the African-Americans?
Rijneveld and Obiols have been bullied out of their jobs, mainly on the base of their skin colour. If only we had a term to describe such a disgraceful attitude ... oh wait, but we do, it's spelt r-a-c-i-s-m.
Don't call it reverse racism, somehow it sounds dismissive. Racism is racism, no matter what direction it goes. Centuries, or even thousands of years of injustice and cruelty are not going to be erased or righted by applying a reverse manoeuvre. We should know by now that two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm appalled and disgusted by racism, like all of you are, I think. That's why I feel quite strongly about this situation.
For those of you who can read Dutch, here's an interesting point of view: https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-opinie/opinie-ik-ben-tegen-de-culturele-apartheid-van-de-woke-stemmingmakerij~b8e27cb4/?utm_source=link&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=shared%20content&utm_content=free
The title translates more or less as I'm against the cultural apartheid of the woke propaganda, and the author is Assita Kanko: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assita_Kanko a Belgian journalist, human rights activist and politician who was elected as a Member of the European Parliament in 2019 representing the New Flemish Alliance, and she's a Black woman.
I think the term cultural apartheid is rather strong, and I don't think I'd agree with most of her political beliefs, but she makes some good points.
| | | | IrinaN
США
Local time: 17:30
английский => русский
+ ...
| Hiring problems? | Mar 13, 2021 |
Jo Macdonald wrote:
a young male redneck
is just about the only guy left who can be fired for incompetence, laziness, negligence etc...
Everyone else with the same magnificent qualities will sue your pants off for discrimination
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Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 23:30
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
The saying is
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating".
There is no proof in the pudding itself, inherently. If there were, there would be no need to eat it.
[Edited at 2021-03-13 15:49 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote:
The saying is
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating".
There is no proof in the pudding itself, inherently. If there were, there would be no need to eat it.
Sorry, Tom, but you do have to eat it. Anything else would be a waste. Being eaten is a pudding’s raisin d’etre, one might say.
(For any non-pedants out there who don’t already know this (though surely we are all pedants here, if not as brazenly as Tom then at least secretly), proof in the context of this saying means test rather than evidence: the true test of the pudding is how it tastes.)
PS Tom, why did you choose a yellow cake dripping with blood?🤔
PPS Portia, how could I disagree? Yet... It’s complicated...
[Edited at 2021-03-13 16:36 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 00:30
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
[Posts an image of] steamed vanilla jam pudding.
According to this page, the pudding in question is black pudding (blood sausage). What's more, according to Google Ngrams, "the proof is in the pudding" dates from at least the 1860s. Still, "the proof of the pudding" is the more common variant and has always been.
| | | | | Earlier meaning of prove/proof | Mar 13, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote:
The saying is
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating".
There is no proof in the pudding itself, inherently. If there were, there would be no need to eat it.
This saying makes more sense if you remember that the earlier meaning of “prove”/“proof” was “test”.
Another saying, “The exception that proves the rule”, has undergone a change in meaning as a result of the change in meaning of the word “prove”.
[Edited at 2021-03-13 19:04 GMT]
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Daryo
Великобритания
Local time: 23:30
сербский => английский
+ ...
the only people "approved" to translate "La Ballade des pendus" would be males on Death Row?
Before anyone starts howling in outrage, check first the facts about "La Ballade des pendus" and show how it wouldn't be exactly the same logic?
Would also be in line with "Why poets translate poets" ... wouldn't it?
As for Victor Obiols, the one that has already done the translation into Catalan, he should declare the contract null and void and refuse any paymen... See more the only people "approved" to translate "La Ballade des pendus" would be males on Death Row?
Before anyone starts howling in outrage, check first the facts about "La Ballade des pendus" and show how it wouldn't be exactly the same logic?
Would also be in line with "Why poets translate poets" ... wouldn't it?
As for Victor Obiols, the one that has already done the translation into Catalan, he should declare the contract null and void and refuse any payment as this would give the right to this US publisher to just bury his work.
Instead, he should publish his translation for free, so that if and when they finally find an "US publisher approved" translator into Catalan, everyone can compare the two translations and draw their own conclusions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gerard de Noord
Франция
Local time: 00:30
Член ProZ.com c 2003
английский => голландский
+ ...
| Poets have a hard time making money | Mar 15, 2021 |
Poets have a hard time making money and I'm glad Gorman had a break. Assigning the translation job to Rijneveld - an International Booker Prize winner - was a commercially sound idea. Assigning it to a translator would have been even better. But in my opinion the best idea would have been to give a young Dutch female poet of colour a break. They don’t get too many.
I suggest Lauwtje... See more Poets have a hard time making money and I'm glad Gorman had a break. Assigning the translation job to Rijneveld - an International Booker Prize winner - was a commercially sound idea. Assigning it to a translator would have been even better. But in my opinion the best idea would have been to give a young Dutch female poet of colour a break. They don’t get too many.
I suggest Lauwtje:
https://youtu.be/b4EGqgw8lpQ ▲ Collapse
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Нидерланды
Local time: 00:30
английский => итальянский
+ ...
| It should go both ways | Mar 19, 2021 |
Gerard de Noord wrote:
Poets have a hard time making money and I'm glad Gorman had a break. Assigning the translation job to Rijneveld - an International Booker Prize winner - was a commercially sound idea. Assigning it to a translator would have been even better. But in my opinion the best idea would have been to give a young Dutch female poet of colour a break. They don’t get too many.
I suggest Lauwtje:
https://youtu.be/b4EGqgw8lpQ
You're right, Gerard, they deserve a break, but why "pigeonholing" black poets/writers with black translators? A talented young poet/writer/translator should have the chance to translate any kind of poetry and literature.
If a young Dutch female poet of colour feels a literary affinity to Homer, or Dante, or Baudelaire, or Shakespeare, she should translate them, without worrying that she's not the same gender/colour/age/nationality as them.
Those affinities are intellectual, or even spiritual, they shouldn't depend on any other factors.
And Chris, you're right too, it is a complicated issue. I'm aware I could sound dismissive, but I'm not. I care deeply, in fact.
I think that – just like in life – in literary translation you have to use empathy and respect, and I say this with a big "Note to self" warning, because it's easy to talk the talk, I should also walk the walk.
But, as human beings, what we share is far, far bigger than what divides us. In the words of Publius Terentius Afer, a Roman African playwright: Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, or "I am human, and I think nothing human is alien to me."
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