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一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)
Автор темы: Alan Wang
ysun
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Obviously Mar 10, 2009

No apology is necessary for me, but you may need to apologize to wherestip. As a matter of fact, your remark about “Waterloo at the last contest” will not have any humiliating effect on wherestip or anybody else. It has only put yourself in a very awkward situation although you may not have realized it.
dumont wrote:

ysun:

I value constructive opinions.

If there's any misunderstanding, please accept my apologies.


 
ysun
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Constructive discussion Mar 10, 2009

A.
dumont wrote:
1) 因为此句中已经有mixer/kneader,所以不在重复混捏两字。另外说明一下,processing 有通过工序制造或配制的意思。所以不似对比译文的Kneading carbon products.

2) Google“process consists of following procedures”的结果:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindo%20w=1&q="process%20consists%20*%20procedure s%22
当然你说的a procedure consists of a number of steps也不一定和此矛盾。比如配料工步也应可以再细分几步。

3) 相关的google 结果:
BASE Automation Technologies Pvt Ltd - Automation, Control systemAuto / manual dispensing of Carbon black into the mixers ... oil, carbon black, polymer for mixing in kneader / intermix / banburry - Poke Yoke ...

1) 按照你的逻辑,难道原文“1250型混捏成套设备用于碳素产品的混捏工序”也应该把后面的“混捏”两字删去?

2) 按照你的建议 Google“process consists of following procedures”,但结果只见到4篇文章:其中2篇的作者是日本人,1篇的作者是泰国人,另1篇的作者是中国人。I suggest we learn English from native English speakers.

3) Yes, I saw “manual dispensing of Carbon black into the mixers”. However, don’t miss the phrase above it: “Carbon black auto batching system”. The word "dispensing" here still means 给料, not 配料。
http://baseautomation.co.in/turnkey.htm

By the way, the following sentence is what I got from another link you provided: www.polydeck.ru/images/oborud/avtocaster_2.pdf
“The Batchmaster III batch mixing system is the third and latest generation batching system from Gruber Systems.”
As I said before: “另一位用的“batch feeding” 比dispensing为好。实际上 batching 这个词是常作配料用的。”

B.
dumont wrote:
1) using weight loss scale是使用失重称的意思。称量,我的句子里有个动词weigh。
Google的结果:
With the addition of a weight loss scale the filler metering system will accurately meter by weight those materials that don’t normally flow well. ...
www.polydeck.ru/images/oborud/avtocaster_2.pdf - Similar pages
2)我以为这种所谓的前后不一致,有时在英语里是鼓励的,避免语言枯燥乏味。这种做法即使在技术文献里,也不是完全见不到。

1) “Weight loss scale” could be misleading. Please see http://stanford.wellsphere.com/wellpage/weight-loss-scale

For a “loss-of-weight-type scale”, please see 《化工工艺与设备图解词典》:


Also see: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4945957.html
“BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
This invention relates to weighing and feeding apparatus for fine particulate materials, such as powders, and particularly to loss-of-weight type weighing apparatus.”

2) 请问,哪本翻译教程是这样说的:“这种所谓的前后不一致,有时在英语里是鼓励的,避免语言枯燥乏味”? 众所周知,这种前后不一致属于翻译的大忌。

C.
dumont wrote:
1)我的句子读起来完全可以理解为是在工艺要求温度180-250℃时才开始算是预混、混捏。如果未达到这个温度时有动作也不矛盾,况且原文并不那么详细。
2)google的结果:
SRUGO DUPLANET Planetary Mixer-Kneader DPMVD 300 with double jacket.
这个jacket可以看成是一个闭合的蒙皮,里面可装东西,也可以看成两边缝合在一起的两个叠加的蒙皮(或者是其他物体比如金属壁)即double jacket,里面同样可装东西,因此腔体的结构用equipped with a double jacket可以说在并非该设备的工程师去翻译的情况下是比较fool-proof的。
网上有不少equipped with a double jacket 以及a double jacket containing 的结果。

3) mix/knead the paste,你的意见是对的,应该可以改成to heat up the paste being kneaded.

1) 那么温度达到“工艺要求温度180-250℃”之前算是什么操作?难道不算预混、混捏?

2) 我并没有否认世界上存在 “double jacket”,但这里不存在。假如存在,那么第二层 jacket 为什么有必要存在?里面通什么介质?

D.
dumont wrote:
ysun wrote:
dumont wrote:
物料混捏合格,达到工艺要求后,把混捏好的热糊料放置到冷却机的冷却腔内冷却。冷却机的冷却腔是双层结构,双层结构的夹套内通温度35-40℃的循环使用的冷导热油,热糊料在此冷却。待糊料冷却到70℃后,将 冷糊料放置到ACM的进料料斗。
After the materials are mixed/kneaded to process requirement, the hot paste is discharged into the cooler to cool down. The cooler cavity is equipped with a double jacket containing 35-40℃ circulating oil by which the hot paste is cooled to a temperature of 70℃ and then discharged into the ACM feed hopper.

1) “After the materials are mixed/kneaded to process requirement” 似应改为 “After the materials have been mixed/kneaded to meet the process requirement”。
2) “double jacket” 问题同上。
3) 同样,下面这段话从逻辑上讲不通: “… a double jacket containing 35-40℃ circulating oil by which the hot paste is … then discharged into the ACM feed hopper.”


此处第一点你说似应改为,似乎不太肯定,第二点已经涉及。
此处第三点为什么逻辑上不通,请指教。

1) I am quite certain about what I said. To say “似应改为" is just a polite way to make a suggestion.

2) Let’s look at you translation: “The cooler cavity is equipped with a double jacket containing 35-40℃ circulating oil by which the hot paste is cooled to a temperature of 70℃ and then discharged into the ACM feed hopper.
Your translation could be construed as “by the circulating oil the hot paste is discharged into the ACM feed hopper”. The hot paste should be discharged by a pump or the like, neither by the circulating oil, nor by the jacket.

E.
dumont wrote:
是我邀请孙先生挑毛病的,所以,你挑了是我的荣幸。不过我也要实话实说,除了一点,我承认外,其他几点我认为都是可商榷的,也许你可以继续提出证据,说服我。

It is also my honor to point out the errors in your translation at your request, but I don’t have to convince you. I believe other peers will be able to judge what is right and what is wrong.

Finally, I'd like to say that you don’t need to feel so disappointed about losing such a low-pay project (“通过试译后待遇100元每千中文起”). If I were you, I wouldn’t even show any interest in such a project, not to mention taking a free test for it. Don't waste too much time on this. Try to do something else that is more productive, and so do I.

[Edited at 2009-03-10 07:59 GMT]


 
chica nueva
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another translation: paste/graphite paste/carbon paste/ ... 哪个正确? Mar 10, 2009

lai an wrote:

是这样吗?

http://www.co-reach.net/gongsi_chanpin.htm
全流程配置——飞灰固化、粉煤灰混捏处理成套工艺及设备
Ash solidification facility

[Edited at 2009-03-09 04:33 GMT]


1 How about this one? I quite like it because it refers to carbon paste:
http://www.chinafanyi.com/wenku/index.asp?action=article_show&id=1751
混捏设备使用说明

2 客户:
’急聘石墨混捏设备技术要求材料说明中译英高手 ...

-》是这个吗?

http://www.indiacarbonltd.com/products.htm
Calcined Petroleum Coke | Electrode Carbon Paste | Tamping Paste

[Edited at 2009-03-11 09:41 GMT]


 
Alan Wang
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translation Mar 10, 2009

孙先生,多谢你花了这么多时间和精力。你对翻译的认真和精益求精的态度,确实值得我们学习.

ysun wrote:
1) 按照你的逻辑,难道原文“1250型混捏成套设备用于碳素产品的混捏工序”也应该把后面的“混捏”两字删去?

我认为你提议的改译:used in the kneading process for carbon products. 是很好的。
ysun wrote:

2) 按照你的建议 Google“process consists of following procedures”,但结果只见到4篇文章:其中2篇的作者是日本人,1篇的作者是泰国人,另1篇的作者是中国人。I suggest we learn English from native English speakers.

请你搜索“process consists of * procedures”。

ysun wrote:

3) Yes, I saw “manual dispensing of Carbon black into the mixers”. However, don’t miss the phrase above it: “Carbon black auto batching system”. The word "dispensing" here still means 给料, not 配料。
http://baseautomation.co.in/turnkey.htm

我认为你是对的,不过给料有时是不是可以理解为包括配料呢?
ysun wrote:

2) 请问,哪本翻译教程是这样说的:“这种所谓的前后不一致,有时在英语里是鼓励的,避免语言枯燥乏味”? 众所周知,这种前后不一致属于翻译的大忌。


我的意思是,英语中比较讲究用同样或类似意思的词以避免对同一单词在同一个句子或上下句的重复使用。
ysun wrote:

1) 那么温度达到“工艺要求温度180-250℃”之前算是什么操作?难道不算预混、混捏?


the stages of premixing and kneading begin at the required processing temperature of 180-250℃.
可以算pre-premixing吧不过原文可能也认为不值一提。
[quote]ysun wrote:

2) 我并没有否认世界上存在 “double jacket”,但这里不存在。假如存在,那么第二层 jacket 为什么有必要存在?里面通什么介质
我可能没有说清楚。我的理解是,a jacket 是覆盖在某个物体上面的一层皮或叫蒙皮(蒙住一个物体的皮)。如果这个物体是圆的,那么这个皮也是圆的,如果是方的,这个皮也是方的。对于double jacket。可以想象在这个皮外面再包一层皮,并使得这两层皮形成闭合体包在物体外面,内部可通流体。我猜想这个设备里面就是类似这样一个结构物。所以用equipped with a double jacket.
ysun wrote:

1) I am quite certain about what I said. To say “似应改为" is just a polite way to make a suggestion.?


Thanks for the suggestion. I am still not sure it really counts as an error though。
ysun wrote:
2) Let’s look at you translation: “The cooler cavity is equipped with a double jacket containing 35-40℃ circulating oil by which the hot paste is cooled to a temperature of 70℃ and then discharged into the ACM feed hopper.
Your translation could be construed as “by the circulating oil the hot paste is discharged into the ACM feed hopper”. The hot paste should be discharged by a pump or the like, neither by the circulating oil, nor by the jacket.


I understand you now. It’s a very good point. Thanks very much.
The cooler cavity is equipped with a double jacket containing 35-40℃ circulating oil by which the hot paste is cooled to a temperature of 70℃ and then (the paste is) discharged into the ACM feed hopper.
Or better:
The cooler cavity is equipped with a double jacket containing 35-40℃ circulating oil by which the hot paste is cooled to a temperature of 70℃ before being discharged into the ACM feed hopper.
ysun wrote:

It is also my honor to point out the errors in your translation at your request, but I don’t have to convince you. I believe other peers will be able to judge what is right and what is wrong.

Finally, I'd like to say that you don’t need to feel so disappointed about losing such a low-pay project (“通过试译后待遇100元每千中文起”). If I were you, I wouldn’t even show any interest in such a project, not to mention taking a free test for it. Don't waste too much time on this. Try to do something else that is more productive, and so do I.


You are right, perhaps I shouldn’t be disappointed. I speak out first out of indignation that no word even of receiving my test translation is acknowledged from the tester.

But of course, I do think my test is comparatively better than the one they choose.

Well, Let the case rest

 
nigerose
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前后不一致很讨厌 Mar 11, 2009

2) 请问,哪本翻译教程是这样说的:“这种所谓的前后不一致,有时在英语里是鼓励的,避免语言枯燥乏味”? 众所周知,这种前后不一致属于翻译的大忌。

_____________________________________

一方面,这种前后不一致在英文中很普遍,在专利文件中同样如此;另一方面,这种前后不一致很讨厌,有时会引起混淆。
至少对于术语和关键词语来说,最好不要前后不一致,但是不知道老外为什么就是喜欢变花样。


 
Alan Wang
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diversity Mar 11, 2009

I think this may have something to do with the fashion of diversity

nigerose wrote:
一方面,这种前后不一致在英文中很普遍,在专利文件中同样如此;另一方面,这种前后不一致很讨厌,有时会引起混淆。
至少对于术语和关键词语来说,最好不要前后不一致,但是不知道老外为什么就是喜欢变花样。


 
ysun
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不应提倡和鼓励这种不一致 Mar 11, 2009

不应提倡和鼓励这种不一致

科技文献不同于文学或其它作品,其术语应尽量严谨一致。 英文原文中出现的前后不一致,不一定是为了避免语言枯燥乏味而有意那样写的,而可能是无意或疏忽造成的错误。 专利文件中出现的前后不一致,其原因很多。 一个很可能的原因就是同一篇专利的不同部分并非都是由同一作者写的。 即使是由同一作者写的,也可能有部分段落�
... See more
不应提倡和鼓励这种不一致

科技文献不同于文学或其它作品,其术语应尽量严谨一致。 英文原文中出现的前后不一致,不一定是为了避免语言枯燥乏味而有意那样写的,而可能是无意或疏忽造成的错误。 专利文件中出现的前后不一致,其原因很多。 一个很可能的原因就是同一篇专利的不同部分并非都是由同一作者写的。 即使是由同一作者写的,也可能有部分段落是从别的专利抄来的,例如某些通用术语的定义。 当然,也不排除人为的错误。我们不应提倡和鼓励这种不一致。 如果原文前后是一致的,那么在翻译时就更不应别出心裁地有意制造不一致。 如果在试译或参加考试时制造前后不一致,那就无异于给别人制造淘汰自己的理由。被淘汰后无论告到哪里都别想翻案。

例如,下面这篇专利关于 carboxylic acid protecting groups 的定义就前后不一致。前面说的是 esters,但后面列出的全是 alkyls。
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6433209/description.html
“Examples of carboxylic acid protecting groups include esters such as methoxymethyl, methylthiomethyl, tetrahydropyranyl, substituted and unsubstituted phenacyl, 2,2,2-trichloroethyl, tert-butyl, cinnamyl, dialkylaminoalkyl (e.g., dimethylaminoethyl and the like), trimethylsilyl, and the like.”

作者的本意是指那些 alkyls 分别与羧基形成的酯,但没写清楚。正确的写法是在最后的 trimethylsilyl 后面再加上一个 esters,或者把前面的 esters 改成 alkyls。

下面这篇专利中关于 carboxylic acid protecting groups 的定义才是正确的前后一致的写法:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=US2005044658&WO=2006/063249&DISPLAY=DESC
“Examples of carboxylic acid protecting groups include esters (e.g., t- butyl ester and benzyl ester).”
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ysun
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“翻译正规无错误,全文流畅” Mar 11, 2009

dumont,

这不跟你翻的那篇是同一篇吗?看到此评语有何感想?可别激动!
lai an wrote:

1 How about this one? I quite like it because it refers to carbon paste:
http://www.chinafanyi.com/wenku/index.asp?action=article_show&id=1751
混捏设备使用说明

摘要:化工机械专业产品介绍,翻译正规无错误,全文流畅,属于全部用专业数据库校对
Process Description
The type 1250 kneading complete set of equipment is used for kneading process of carbonic product. This process consists of five working steps: dosing, kneading, discharging hot carbon paste, cooling hot paste and discharging cold carbon paste.
At the initial working step of dosing, weigh powder and asphalt which need weighing and accord with technologic requirements with weight loss method, and add the stuff into kneading cavity of kneader according to proportion ratio required.
Premix and knead materials after feeding powder. The working steps of premixing and kneading need a temperature of 180-250℃. The kneading cavity of kneader has a. bilayer system .The hot heat-conducting oil with a temperature of 180-280℃ circulates in the jacket of this structure and heats kneading paste.
When the kneaded materials qualifies technologic requirements, place the hot kneaded carbon paste into cooling cavity of cooling machine and cool it. The cooling cavity of cooling machine has a. bilayer system. The cold heat-conducting oil with a temperature of 35-40℃ circulates in the jacket of this structure and cools hot carbon paste. When the temperature of carbon paste falls to 70℃, place the cold paste into the hopper of the ACM.

说句公道话,你翻得可比这个要好得多。


[Edited at 2009-03-11 18:00 GMT]


 
ysun
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随感 Mar 11, 2009

此项目的招标者抱怨说实在招不到水平高的。中国那么大,那么多人,还能没有水平高的? 问题是她出价才RMB100元/千中文字,也实在太低了吧? 据说她最后把此“大项目”以RMB140元/千中文字(约相当于$0.02/中文字)的价格给了一位在华的外国人。看来,那“外国人”倒是好说话。

 
nigerose
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再随感 Mar 11, 2009

国内的专利翻译行价是100元/1000英文单词。注意,是英文单词。

 
Joyce Curran
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这价格未免太低了, Mar 11, 2009

去年回去,发现北京的消费,很多实际上和英国差不多了。如果RMB140/1000中文字,那么工作速度必须很快,而且工作来源必须多还稳定,否则在北京,上海这价格确实太少。

ysun wrote:

此项目的招标者抱怨说实在招不到水平高的。中国那么大,那么多人,还能没有水平高的? 问题是她出价才RMB100元/千中文字,也实在太低了吧? 据说她最后把此“大项目”以RMB140元/千中文字(约相当于$0.02/中文字)的价格给了一位在华的外国人。看来,那“外国人”倒是好说话。


 
ysun
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上有政策,下有对策 Mar 11, 2009

nigerose wrote:

国内的专利翻译行价是100元/1000英文单词。注意,是英文单词。

那就更低了!很多翻译应付这种低价政策的对策必然是以提高翻译速度的方式来提高收入。翻译社还找不找他人来审核这样翻译出来的专利? 这样翻出来的专利有没有被用户拒绝过? 看来,还是国内翻译社日子好混。

[Edited at 2009-03-12 00:40 GMT]


 
nigerose
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垄断 Mar 12, 2009

ysun wrote:

nigerose wrote:

国内的专利翻译行价是100元/1000英文单词。注意,是英文单词。

那就更低了!很多翻译应付这种低价政策的对策必然是以提高翻译速度的方式来提高收入。翻译社还找不找他人来审核这样翻译出来的专利? 这样翻出来的专利有没有被用户拒绝过? 看来,还是国内翻译社日子好混。

[Edited at 2009-03-12 00:40 GMT]


国内专利翻译业务基本上垄断在所谓的涉外专利代理公司,翻译行业的翻译社、公司不能涉足,能接到专利翻译业务的也是来自涉外代理公司。既然垄断,于是就有行业垄断低价,出现翻译质量低下的情况,外国客户也得忍着。不过,这种垄断局面不久就会被打破。

[修改时间: 2009-03-12 01:18 GMT]


 
ysun
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为什么?谁来破? Mar 12, 2009

nigerose wrote:

不过,这种垄断局面不久就会被打破。


 
nigerose
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新专利法 Mar 12, 2009

ysun wrote:

nigerose wrote:

不过,这种垄断局面不久就会被打破。


如果你感兴趣,可以了解一下将于今年10月实施的新专利法。


 
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一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)






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