| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4] > | New gender-neutral Bible translation angers conservatives
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| | | Is "men" a better translation? | Mar 24, 2011 |
liz askew wrote:
I cannot resist a facetious remark about the politically-correct translation.
.."to fish for people"...has me laughing out loud.
Liz Askew
I am not sure but the greek text says:
ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων
In Greek the word ἀνθρώπος means "person" (male and female) rather than "men" (and not women).
It can be argued that translating ἀνθρώπων as "persons" or "people" is more accurate and reflects better the original meaning, even if it sounds so different to what we are used to.
Daniel
| | | | Samuel Murray 
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| To fish for people | Mar 24, 2011 |
liz askew wrote:
I cannot resist a facetious remark about the politically-correct translation.
..."to fish for people"...has me laughing out loud.
What would have you not laughing out loud? I think you're only laughing because you grew up with a certain phrasing and anything else now sounds odd compared to it. If you compare a translation with a previous translation, then obviously some phrases will have been translated differently (including favourite phrases).
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liz askew wrote:
I cannot resist a facetious remark about the politically-correct translation.
.."to fish for people"...has me laughing out loud.
In what way does this differ from the meaning the readers of the original text would have understood? Again... you want familiarity, not a translation.
| | | | liz askew
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| to fish for people | Mar 25, 2011 |
just sounds funny and makes me laugh
I imagine somebody sitting at the side of a river with a fishing rod, fishing for people, rather than fish.
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liz askew
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| my point was that political correctness can be ridiculous and make me laugh, that is all. | Mar 25, 2011 |
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Steven Capsuto wrote: liz askew wrote:
I cannot resist a facetious remark about the politically-correct translation.
.."to fish for people"...has me laughing out loud. In what way does this differ from the meaning the readers of the original text would have understood? Again... you want familiarity, not a translation.
Steve, I really dislike it when I discover that I was not right in something in which I had firm ideas. I have been thinking deeply about this remark of yours and... must admit you are right! :-/
| | | | liz askew
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| You want a translation not familiarity. | Mar 26, 2011 |
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| | | | Erik Freitag
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Just a hint:
In 1521, Luther used the term "Menschenfischer" in his translation of the Bible into German. This word explicitly relates to both men and women.
I'm no specialist, but taking Daniel García's comment into account, it seems that the German translation is closer to the Greek than the English "men".
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| An interesting and more detailed explanation | Mar 26, 2011 |
An interesting article about the translation of "fisher of men":
http://blogs.bible.org/netbible/michael_h._burer/a_little_more_on_our_translation_philosophy
The author discussed the different difficulties that translators find when translating the bible and how difficult it is to provide a faithful translation w... See more An interesting article about the translation of "fisher of men":
http://blogs.bible.org/netbible/michael_h._burer/a_little_more_on_our_translation_philosophy
The author discussed the different difficulties that translators find when translating the bible and how difficult it is to provide a faithful translation which conveys the meaning of the original while at the same time is readable and elegant.
He gives detailed reasons about the pros and cons of different translations.
The author agrees that "man" is an archaic translation for ἀνθρώπων but, he disagrees of the translation “I will make you fish for people.”
In their translation of the bible they translated this verse as "I will turn you into fishers of people."
As Steven says, some seem to prefer familiarity to accuracy.
Daniel ▲ Collapse
| | | | Barry Appleby
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| Why an absolutely clear and correct Bible translation is impossible. | Mar 27, 2011 |
Please bear in mind that in the Hebrew Bible at least, there are times when words are used in a metaphorical. Take the word Elohim which has a plural form but is used with a singular verb and is traditionally generally considered to be one of the names for the Amighty. In Psalm 82 the first line contains states he (God) judgeth among the gods. This has been cited by
some scholars as proof that the early Hebrew reilgion had elements of polytheism.
However "elohim" has also been under... See more Please bear in mind that in the Hebrew Bible at least, there are times when words are used in a metaphorical. Take the word Elohim which has a plural form but is used with a singular verb and is traditionally generally considered to be one of the names for the Amighty. In Psalm 82 the first line contains states he (God) judgeth among the gods. This has been cited by
some scholars as proof that the early Hebrew reilgion had elements of polytheism.
However "elohim" has also been understood as referring to rulers or judges. The Psalms is
though to have been composed by David's chief musician Asaph who also served
his successor Solomon, who, according to the Bible 1 Kings 11 verse 4, started to
worship pagan gods. He also became corrupt and was criticised by Asaph's brother, who
is said to have been murdered on Solomon's orders. Hence, it would have been unwise
on Aspah part to have composed a Psalm in which he openly criticised Solomon's corrupt
judges. He thus resorted to a metaphor to make his point without risking his own life. In Communist Eastern Europe, this was an established ruse as can be seen in the Czech film
The Fireman's Ball, which is a cleverly veiled attack on Czechoslovakia's Communist rulers.
It is very difficult to understand certain passages in the Bible in some cases since the meaning
of certain words has become obscured in the course of time. Furthermore, One needs to be aware of the wider context. The phrase "eye for eye" cannot be taken literally since Jewish law forbids mutilation including the castration of male animals.
In the Hebrew text of the Bible, the Israelites did not cross the the Red Sea. They cross yams souf, a sea of reeds, i.e. a marshy area. The term Red Sea is thought to have been an error
made by a copyist who misread "Reed" as Red.
Finally, Jews are commanded to refrain from eating meat and milk or other dairy products at the same time, although there is not such explicit prohibition anywhere. This practice is based on a verse repeated three times that states that "thou shall not seethe (boil) a kid in its mother's milk", which ties in with other ideas about animal welfare and miniising animal suffering, since the animals are also part of a Divine creation that we must respect. One of the seven commandments that it is considered are essential in every civilized society is "not to tear limb from a living animal and eat it". However, the Rabbis have chosen to interpret this verse, which describes a cruel and barbaric practice, in a rather mundane way.
To sum up, as one who has a limited ability to read the Hebrew Bible in the original, the very concept of an absolutely correct and clear translation is meaningless. The events described in the Hebrew Bible took place centuries before it was written, at a time when Hebrew was written with an alphabet borrowed from the Phoenicians, while the oldest surviving scrolls are written in the square letters of the Aramaic alphabet that with are familiar with today and are no longer than the 2nd century BCE.
So beware of people who like to say "The Bible clearly states....", since the Bible has to understood in a certain context and those whose translate from Hebrew and Greek must , apart from a deep knowledge of those languages, posses a solid grounding in theology and history.
This discussion was sparked off by a typical Daily Mail sensationalist moan written, as is usually the case, by somebody with a vested interest in not presenting a well-researched and
balanced account. ▲ Collapse
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Barry Appleby wrote:
This discussion was sparked off by a typical Daily Mail sensationalist moan written, as is usually the case, by somebody with a vested interest in not presenting a well-researched and
balanced account.
There's a reason why the phrase "angry Daily Mail readers" is practically a stock phrase in UK English. It's a publication rooted in sensationalism, not rational thought.
| | | | Rachel Fell
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liz askew wrote:
I cannot resist a facetious remark about the politically-correct translation.
.."to fish for people"...has me laughing out loud.
Liz Askew
I know what you mean, and it sounds banal - or, "you never know what may turn up". Maybe " to fish for men and women" would be better, but then again...
[Edited at 2011-03-27 22:03 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-03-27 22:04 GMT]
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Susanna Garcia
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Памяти | Daily Mail - off topic | Mar 28, 2011 |
There's a reason why the phrase "angry Daily Mail readers" is practically a stock phrase in UK English. It's a publication rooted in sensationalism, not rational thought.
Quote Steven Capsuto
Sorry, couldn't resist
The Daily Mail Song
www.youtube.com
mp3 here:... See more There's a reason why the phrase "angry Daily Mail readers" is practically a stock phrase in UK English. It's a publication rooted in sensationalism, not rational thought.
Quote Steven Capsuto
Sorry, couldn't resist
The Daily Mail Song
www.youtube.com
mp3 here: http://bit.ly/9zPBDi Hello everyone. Me & Dan have written a song about The Daily Mail (a British newspaper). We're aware this video won't mean an awful lot if you've never heard of The Daily Mail, but on the plus side, you've never heard of The Daily Mail.
Suzi ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rachel Fell
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Susanna Garcia wrote:
Sorry, couldn't resist
The Daily Mail Song
www.youtube.com
Suzi
Thanks Suzi
| | | | Sona Petrosyan
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| The message of the Author | Mar 29, 2011 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
This is one theory of translation, yes, i.e. that the translator should stick to what the source text actually says, regardless of other factors like the purpose of the source text, the intended message/meaning that the source text's author tried to convey, the cultural background of the original readers or of the readers of the translation, etc, and that the translator should use the words in the translation that best or most closely render the meaning of the source text, regardless of whether those words are well-known, current or commonly used in the target language.
Yes, especially if the author is not a man, but God. And if we have no right to change any word in a book written by a human, moreover, we don't have any right to change anything in the Word of God, which has its certain purpose for us (if we believe it is the Word of God. and this is a book for believers).
And I think it would be very useful for us to think over the last sentences of the Bible...
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