| Страниц в теме: [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Translating from mother tongue into second language Автор темы: dcanossa
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dcanossa 
Испания
Local time: 09:13
английский => испанский
+ ...
I occasionally come across agencies posting job offers looking for translators to translate from their mother tongue into their second language, even restricting the possibility of replying to the posts to only those translators who meet that particular criteria.
We all know that it is ideal to translate from the second language into the mother tongue, which is undoubtedly the one we have a better command of (except in very few cases, where the native speaker lived in a foreign country mos... See more I occasionally come across agencies posting job offers looking for translators to translate from their mother tongue into their second language, even restricting the possibility of replying to the posts to only those translators who meet that particular criteria.
We all know that it is ideal to translate from the second language into the mother tongue, which is undoubtedly the one we have a better command of (except in very few cases, where the native speaker lived in a foreign country most of their lives). In my case, I have an excellent command of English, and I have even interpreted in the EnglishSpanish pair for some time, but when it comes to translating, I feel much more comfortable doing it into Spanish, knowing that the resultant text will certainly sound natural. Do you think this is simply a mistake in the job offer post, or do agencies really look for people who translate into their second language? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 08:13
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
Translating from mother tongue into second language? I would never do that.
I have lived constantly in Italy, working, taking a university degree, teaching, lecturing, writing, and doing everything else a person can do, all in Italian, for more than 20 years. Italians often take me for a native Italian speaker and ask me what part of Tuscany I'm from.
But I would *never* offer my services to translate from my mother tongue (English) into Italian.
That's b... See more Translating from mother tongue into second language? I would never do that.
I have lived constantly in Italy, working, taking a university degree, teaching, lecturing, writing, and doing everything else a person can do, all in Italian, for more than 20 years. Italians often take me for a native Italian speaker and ask me what part of Tuscany I'm from.
But I would *never* offer my services to translate from my mother tongue (English) into Italian.
That's because I know so much about my own abilities in Italian that I know I would still make mistakes and personally, I wouldn't rely on anyone who claims to be able to translate equally well in both directions.
[Edited at 2011-08-17 13:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Mistake based on lack of knowledge | Aug 17, 2011 |
If a potential client asks for non-native speakers, chances are that the client does not fully appreciate the difficulties involved in translation. As a computer linguist I have met a LOT of persons which totally underestimate the costs, time and skill requirements involved. Some don't even understand that the translation quality may negatively impact sales. I have managed to educate a few, though!
If the translation required very specific knowledge in a certain field, which can be ... See more If a potential client asks for non-native speakers, chances are that the client does not fully appreciate the difficulties involved in translation. As a computer linguist I have met a LOT of persons which totally underestimate the costs, time and skill requirements involved. Some don't even understand that the translation quality may negatively impact sales. I have managed to educate a few, though!
If the translation required very specific knowledge in a certain field, which can be the case for technical and/or research related articles, I could imagine having a subject matter expert translate it and then having it proofread by a native speaker. But I can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't let a native speaker in at some point or another. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Мексика
Local time: 02:13
немецкий => английский
| Translating from mother tongue into second language | Aug 17, 2011 |
Diego Canossa wrote:
I occasionally come across agencies posting job offers looking for translators to translate from their mother tongue into their second language, even restricting the possibility of replying to the posts to only those translators who meet that particular criteria.
Do you think this is simply a mistake in the job offer post, or do agencies really look for people who translate into their second language?
Unfortunately, Diego, I don't think this is a mistake. I think it can be attributed to ignorance and even arrogance. I've noticed that Dutch agencies, in particular, and translators too, actually do believe that only Dutch translators can translate Dutch into any language. A few Germans believe that too. I know for a fact that some German speakers produce excellent translations into English, but they are exceptions to the rule.
From "Getting it Right" - an ATA client education booklet available in print and online.
Professional translators work into their native language
If you want your catalog translated into German and Russian, the work will be done by a native German speaker and a native Russian speaker. Native English-speakers translate from foreign languages INTO English.
As a translation buyer, you may not be aware of this, but a translator who flouts this basic rule is likely to be ignorant of other important quality issues as well.
OK, there are exceptions. But not many. If your supplier claims to be one of them, ask to see something he or she has done. If it is factually accurate and reads well, and if the translator guarantees equivalent quality for your text – why not? Sometimes a translator with particular subject-matter expertise may agree to work into what is for him or her a foreign language. In this case, the translation must be carefully edited – and not just glanced through – by a language-sensitive native speaker before it goes to press.
Chris Durban, author of the Onion Skin
http://www.atanet.org/publications/getting_it_right.php
[Edited at 2011-08-17 14:17 GMT]
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Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 08:13
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
Kim Metzger wrote:
Diego Canossa wrote:
I occasionally come across agencies posting job offers looking for translators to translate from their mother tongue into their second language, even restricting the possibility of replying to the posts to only those translators who meet that particular criteria.
Do you think this is simply a mistake in the job offer post, or do agencies really look for people who translate into their second language?
Unfortunately, Diego, I don't think this is a mistake. I think it can be attibuted to ignorance and even arrogance. I've noticed that Dutch agencies, in particular, and translators too, actually do believe that only Dutch translators can translate Dutch into any language. A few Germans believe that too. I know for a fact that some German speakers produce excellent translations into English, but they are exceptions to the rule.
From "Getting it Right" - an ATA client education booklet available in print and online.
Professional translators work into their native language
If you want your catalog translated into German and Russian, the work will be done by a native German speaker and a native Russian speaker. Native English-speakers translate from foreign languages INTO English.
As a translation buyer, you may not be aware of this, but a translator who flouts this basic rule is likely to be ignorant of other important quality issues as well.
OK, there are exceptions. But not many. If your supplier claims to be one of them, ask to see something he or she has done. If it is factually accurate and reads well, and if the translator guarantees equivalent quality for your text – why not? Sometimes a translator with particular subject-matter expertise may agree to work into what is for him or her a foreign language. In this case, the translation must be carefully edited – and not just glanced through – by a language-sensitive native speaker before it goes to press.
Chris Durban, author of the Onion Skin
http://www.atanet.org/publications/getting_it_right.php
I've never seen it better explained !
| | | | | Very few exceptions indeed | Aug 17, 2011 |
I am currently editing marketing copy in English produced by native German speakers who most likely speak English very well and who can make themselves understood in writing as well. But in terms of the very high level of language expertise required for producing copy worthy of publication, the text is woefully lacking.
I would agree with Kim that the overestimation of one's abilities in a foreign tongue reflected in the kinds of cases under discussion does indeed result from a com... See more I am currently editing marketing copy in English produced by native German speakers who most likely speak English very well and who can make themselves understood in writing as well. But in terms of the very high level of language expertise required for producing copy worthy of publication, the text is woefully lacking.
I would agree with Kim that the overestimation of one's abilities in a foreign tongue reflected in the kinds of cases under discussion does indeed result from a combination of arrogance and ignorance. I have found this specifically in regards to certain native speakers of German and Dutch whose texts I've reviewed.
[Edited at 2011-08-17 15:28 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 08:13
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
| You can always tell... | Aug 17, 2011 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
... a combination of arrogance and ignorance.
Yes - no matter how well somebody THINKS they can translate into their second language, one can always tell that it isn't their native language. It might be a word here or a word there, a slightly strange construction, slightly out-of-date usage, etc. etc. There's always something that doesn't seem quite right to the native speaker. Something that generates mistrust of the translated text.
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Финляндия
Local time: 10:13
Член ProZ.com c 2003
финский => немецкий
+ ...
| Need to co-operate | Aug 17, 2011 |
For rare languages it is almost the norm that natives translate into foreign languages. Otherwise no translations would be forthcoming. How many native English translators know Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian, no to mention Georgian or Albanian?
Usually I would advice any translator to use a native proofreader for all translations, even into one's native language.
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Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 08:13
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
For rare languages it is almost the norm that natives translate into foreign languages. Otherwise no translations would be forthcoming. How many native English translators know Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian, no to mention Georgian or Albanian?
Usually I would advice any translator to use a native proofreader for all translations, even into one's native language.
This may be true, Heinrich, but in such (rare) cases the translator should at least have been living and working for at least 20 years in an English-speaking country (or the country in which the target language is spoken) so that they are up-to-date with the language and any mistakes they do make are not basic grammatical or syntactical errors.
[Edited at 2011-08-17 15:47 GMT]
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Финляндия
Local time: 10:13
Член ProZ.com c 2003
финский => немецкий
+ ...
| Only publications need natives | Aug 17, 2011 |
Does it really matter if a technical manual is linguistically less than 100% correct? I have hardly seen any technical material written by natives (specialists) that couldn't be improved linguistically.
Of course it is nice if a translator delivers top-notch text, but less than perfect will do as well, as long as the product is understandable.
In advertising it has been proven that often no one understands what the stuff really is about. Slogans that have no meaning at all.
... See more Does it really matter if a technical manual is linguistically less than 100% correct? I have hardly seen any technical material written by natives (specialists) that couldn't be improved linguistically.
Of course it is nice if a translator delivers top-notch text, but less than perfect will do as well, as long as the product is understandable.
In advertising it has been proven that often no one understands what the stuff really is about. Slogans that have no meaning at all.
When translating literature natives are indispensable, no doubt. But often you notice that some parts were not understood completely. So in this case the native command of the source language would have been a benefit. Again co-operation is needed, but who pays for it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ambrose Li
Канада
Local time: 03:13
английский
+ ...
I don’t want to repeat everything I’ve said here (should be easy to find… the only thread I’ve ever posted so far) or elsewhere, but there are a lot of assumptions here.
First, what do you mean by your native language? You write when you translate. So what if the way you write is almost completely detached from the way you speak, in other words your so-called native language is actually a second language you leant from school? Are these people then not qualified to become tr... See more I don’t want to repeat everything I’ve said here (should be easy to find… the only thread I’ve ever posted so far) or elsewhere, but there are a lot of assumptions here.
First, what do you mean by your native language? You write when you translate. So what if the way you write is almost completely detached from the way you speak, in other words your so-called native language is actually a second language you leant from school? Are these people then not qualified to become translators, ever?
Let us put this aside for the moment and assume that “the first written language you learnt” (or “the first written language you learnt before you are X years old” for some small X) and “your native language” are the same thing. What if you moved to a foreign country when you were eight? I know some such people who, by the time they are in Grade 12, cannot speak (let alone write) other than in their second language. Should we also penalize these people by insisting that they translate into their “native language” (which is a language they hardly understand)? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
Великобритания
Local time: 08:13
французский => английский
+ ...
| Ideology or commercial decision? | Aug 17, 2011 |
So firstly to address Heinrich's point: I think it's completely true that, beyond some level where the number of disfluencies becomes jarring to the reader, it doesn't matter if some texts contain a handful of non-native features. You mention publications, but in reality there are even published reference engineering texts written by proficient non-native speakers whose occasional non-native features have not been corrected. It's also common for academic papers written by non-natives to be publi... See more So firstly to address Heinrich's point: I think it's completely true that, beyond some level where the number of disfluencies becomes jarring to the reader, it doesn't matter if some texts contain a handful of non-native features. You mention publications, but in reality there are even published reference engineering texts written by proficient non-native speakers whose occasional non-native features have not been corrected. It's also common for academic papers written by non-natives to be published with little or no revision, even though in many cases the author's investigative abilities far exceed their command of the language they are writing in.
But as a *baseline* expectation for a "professional translation", I would still posit that the end result should be a text that reads as though it was an original text written by a skilled native writer. It think it just avoids all sorts of problems and false expectations if we take that as the assumed standard unless stated otherwise.
Now, I don't think that how you arrive at this end result necessarily has to exclude translators working into a non-native language if they are proficient enough in that language for it to be commercially worthwhile, given the extra revision/collaboration that will then be required to achieve the end result of a text with the required quality. I see that as a practical decision rather than an ideological one. ▲ Collapse
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Angie Garbarino
Local time: 09:13
Член ProZ.com c 2003
французский => итальянский
+ ...
| I totally agree with you | Aug 17, 2011 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Only publications need natives.
When translating literature natives are indispensable, no doubt. But often you notice that some parts were not understood completely. So in this case the native command of the source language would have been a benefit. Again co-operation is needed, but who pays for it?
I could also add that I have seen legal traslations into English from Italian performed by native English speakers who totally misunderstood the source.
You are absolutely right in my opnion, cooperation would be the best solution.
| | | | Dave Bindon
Греция
Local time: 10:13
греческий (новогреческий) => английский
Памяти | Partially agree | Aug 17, 2011 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
For rare languages it is almost the norm that natives translate into foreign languages. Otherwise no translations would be forthcoming. How many native English translators know Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian, no to mention Georgian or Albanian?
Greek counts as a rare language, and it is true that most Greek translators have Greek as their mother tongue even if their target language is not Greek. However, there are translators (like me) who have Greek as a 2nd language. Not many, but enough. The agencies mainly use non-native speakers because they're cheaper, not because native-speakers of the target language don't exist. But the fact that Greek agencies don't even think we exist doesn't help.
As someone else has suggested, I think the requests for native speakers of the source language - in the Greek market at least - stem from a mixture of arrogance and ignorance, but mostly the latter. 'Foreigners' who speak and understand Greek beyond basic conversational level are as rare as hens' teeth, so most clients think we don't even exist. They also don't have a clue how many errors native Greek speakers make in their translations into their 2nd languages. They happily pay peanuts to a Greek who spent a year in London, rather than pay the rates I charge.
Thankfully, I have many clients who do understand the importance of using a native speaker of the target language.
As an aside, and with reference to the idea that native speakers of the source language have better comprehension of the text... I once nearly 'sold my soul' to a translation agency here in Athens, and went for an interview (I got the job, but chucked it in after two days!). As part of the interview I completed a test translation from Greek to English which was then edited by the owner (Dip. Trans. English>Greek) and the head of his "English Department". They both disagreed with one section of my translation. I pointed out to them that their translations said that the raw food could be "stored or served", and that serving raw food isn't a good idea. I then explained what the Greek sentence meant, that the 'or served' referred back to a previous clause in the sentence etc... That's when they realized that the 'foreigner' grasped the meaning better than they did.
| | | | Neil Coffey
Великобритания
Local time: 08:13
французский => английский
+ ...
| Definition of "native" | Aug 17, 2011 |
Ambrose Li wrote:
country when you were eight? I know some such people who, by the time they are in Grade 12, cannot speak (let alone write) other than in their second language. Should we also penalize these people by insisting that they translate into their “native language” (which is a language they hardly understand)?
When we say "native speaker", there's an inherent assumption, I think, that we mean a native language that you have acquired to the level of a normal educated adult speaker of that language. Nobody's suggesting that you translate into a language where the extent of your acquisition is being able to ask your mommy for the colouring-in book just because of some anal definition of "native". And I actually don't think linguistis would tend to define "native" as simply meaning "the first language you ever acquired"-- this may be a popular interpretation but it's not a technical definition as far as I can see.
In any case, for the definition to be useful in the context of translation, I think we have to accept that what is implied by being a "native speaker" is that you can make the judgements that an average "normal" educated adult native speaker of that language can make.
[Edited at 2011-08-17 18:10 GMT]
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