| Страниц в теме: < [1 2] | Are we so crying for projects? Автор темы: Adsion Liu
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Nikita Kobrin 
Литва
Local time: 10:39
Член ProZ.com c 2010
английский => русский
+ ...
| For me: just another piece of education | Mar 9, 2011 |
Hi Adsion,
Adsion Liu wrote:
Today, I witness a job post, many times repeated, posted by a bad outsourcer, but was with several candidates! This outsourcer has multiple non-payment issues recorded on Blueboard, but why we translators still offer candiates?
Sometimes when I'm not very busy and have a bit of free time I bid for a job ad posted by a bad outsourcer.
If I get a response I usually reply something in the following vein:
Thank you for your message. I would be happy to cooperate with you but taking into consideration your very low current rating at the Proz Blue Board I expect you to pay up-front for the whole project. Is it OK for you?
Do they pay me up-front? No. Bad outsourcers never pay up-front (at least according to my personal experience).
You may ask: 'What is this for then?' Well, just another piece of education: it's a pleasure for me to remind all those bad outsourcers that the Blue Board and other similar tools are not for nothing...
NK
| | | | Ronald van der Linden (X)
Мексика
Local time: 02:39
немецкий => голландский
+ ...
| market behaviour & current/future developments | Mar 9, 2011 |
Adsion Liu wrote:
Today, I witness a job post, many times repeated, posted by a bad outsourcer, but was with several candidates! This outsourcer has multiple non-payment issues recorded on Blueboard, but why we translators still offer candiates?
Isn't it simply business as usual? Market rules are that when providers and clients meet they can decide on the conditions to work together or simply decide not to. As long as the work is paid. Some won't mind waiting 90 days, others do. Some won't mind star ratings at 1 or 2, as long as these agencies pay up in the end. Also, there may be a problem with the explanation of the rating system, where some do actually believe that a 3 star rating is adequate, while others believe the rating should be a perfect 5 at all times. (I have come across 5-star agencies with payment schedules of 120 days, which in my opinion is unbelievable, and I am wasting my time to find out these conditions on first contact.)
Then, there are some who may think that a 2-starred agency may have difficulties finding translators working for them, and specifically offer their services to these agencies as most others would not. Supply and demand. As long as these colleagues are happy working for 2-starred agencies, why should others who only prefer working with 5-starred agencies worry about translators working with 2-starred agencies?
Unless, there is fear that the rating system is flawed or may become flawed as those translators working with 2-starred agencies, will start rating them with 5 stars. Why? Because they are happy with their cooperation, with the risk of these previously 2-star rated agencies becoming 3-star, 4-star and so forth.
But, to deal with this particular fear, I have already started a thread a while time ago, claiming the need for a particular set of rules, proposing a rating system with a clear, no-room-for-subjective-answers, but objective ones and the response was that Proz.com did not feel the need to act on changing the rating system as the majority (!) wanted to keep the subjectivity.
My own conclusion is, without an objective rating system, Proz.com's rating system will become more and more a subjective one (answers like "pays on time", and "PM is nice" in combination with a 5 star rating, is utterly subjective), where perhaps 2-starred agencies over time may become 4-starred ones, simply because there is a demand and a supply - even for those 1 and 2-starred agencies - with a very probable tendency that translators working with these 1&2-starred agencies, would start rating them with 4 or even 5 stars. Why? Because these translators are perfectly happy with the conditions agreed by a 1 or a 2 starred agency.
I believe the original idea of the BlueBoard to have been a black list of agencies, unfortunately it has grown to be a marketing tool for translators, and due to legal issues, it is impossible to publicly blacklist a third party. The result: a "soft" BlueBoard system with the capability of becoming decreasingly less valuable to such an extent that it may be a matter of time that members will no longer appreciate the BlueBoard as more and more 2-starred agencies may be rated with "fine" and inevitable become 4-starred agencies, and perhaps in due time even become 5-starred, thus in my opinion the BlueBoard in its current form is the perfect tool for further deterioration of already deteriorated translation market's conditions.
Now, there is one positive side on the current BlueBoard, agencies who depend on Proz.com and do not pay on time, can be reported and Proz.com will act accordingly, and surprise, surprise the translator suddenly does get his invoice amounts deposited. However, it does not function as a properly functioning prevention tool (see my example of 120 days payment terms offered by a 5 star rated agency).
The question really is, what does the majority of paying members really want to see from a BlueBoard? A few months ago, the answer was "subjectivity". This means that due to different cultures, marketing strategies, points of view, etc. a 5-star agency for one may perfectly be a 2-star agency for another. Depending on how the view of the majority will develop, some may decide to leave Proz.com, while others may decide to join, which is perfectly fine, however, it may or may not necessarily improve the translator's market's conditions, which may or may not necessarily be of any importance to me or to others.
Please note, I am not complaining, I am attempting to offer my points of view towards future developments.
| | | | Adsion Liu
Канада
Local time: 03:39
английский => китайский
+ ...
Автор темы
Nikita Kobrin wrote:
Hi Adsion,
Adsion Liu wrote:
Today, I witness a job post, many times repeated, posted by a bad outsourcer, but was with several candidates! This outsourcer has multiple non-payment issues recorded on Blueboard, but why we translators still offer candiates?
Sometimes when I'm not very busy and have a bit of free time I bid for a job ad posted by a bad outsourcer.
If I get a response I usually reply something in the following vein:
Thank you for your message. I would be happy to cooperate with you but taking into consideration your very low current rating at the Proz Blue Board I expect you to pay up-front for the whole project. Is it OK for you?
Do they pay me up-front? No. Bad outsourcers never pay up-front (at least according to my personal experience).
You may ask: 'What is this for then?' Well, just another piece of education: it's a pleasure for me to remind all those bad outsourcers that the Blue Board and other similar tools are not for nothing...
NK
Cool man! I do similar things sometimes, but not in this case. I just require 100% prepayment at the very first occasion...
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Франция
Local time: 09:39
французский => немецкий
+ ...
Ronald van der Linden wrote:
(.../...)
But, to deal with this particular fear, I have already started a thread a while time ago, claiming the need for a particular set of rules, proposing a rating system with a clear, no-room-for-subjective-answers, but objective ones and the response was that Proz.com did not feel the need to act on changing the rating system as the majority (!) wanted to keep the subjectivity.
I was among those in the minority and still feel that there should be more objective rating possibilities, based on quantifiables.
This is not the case with the current system, in which there are no details as the rating simply expresses a "Willingness to Work Again".
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Simone Linke
Германия
Local time: 09:39
Член ProZ.com c 2009
английский => немецкий
+ ...
Ronald van der Linden wrote:
The question really is, what does the majority of paying members really want to see from a BlueBoard? A few months ago, the answer was "subjectivity". This means that due to different cultures, marketing strategies, points of view, etc. a 5-star agency for one may perfectly be a 2-star agency for another. Depending on how the view of the majority will develop, some may decide to leave Proz.com, while others may decide to join, which is perfectly fine, however, it may or may not necessarily improve the translator's market's conditions, which may or may not necessarily be of any importance to me or to others.
100% agreement with your post. And I highly doubt that "the majority" would prefer the BB to remain as it is right now. To me, it's mostly useless for the following reasons:
- I have worked for agencies with low quality standards who still have a 4- or 5-star rating --> but there's no option available where I could maybe give a detailed rating like: a) payment terms: fine b) rates: medium c) QA and workflow: bad.
- I have seen it happen (by being on the mailing list of the respective agency) that an agency sent an email to all its translators telling them that one "black sheep" has left a bad rating and they'd like to see all translators go to the BB and leave a positive rating so the bad one will disappear/be pushed far, far down --> the result? The agency got like 30 top ratings within one or two days and the bad rating (which probably was fair, given some of the agency's workflows) has been pushed out of sight. In their e-mail the agency folks implicitly said that a bad BB rating could result in fewer projects, thus it spoke directly to the fear of many of these translators that they would be punished (by not getting work) if they didn't leave a positive rating. Abuse of the BB? I don't know, but it's definitely shady.
- I am not allowed to post details on the board regarding scammers unless I have lost money. How can Proz claim to be a site for translators if the only way to warn others about scams is to actually lose money??!! (i.e.: if I notice a scam in time and don't fall for it, I am not allowed to warn others because - per the BB rules - I can only rate a company if I have completed a project for them) --> result: the BB doesn't contain many scams and thus doesn't fulfill its purpose as a "blacklist" directory
- the number of available characters to comment on your rating is way, way too short; it's impossible to provide sufficient details and explain your rating
- many people are afraid to provide proper ratings; this can be seen by comments like "I enjoy working for XYZ and I hope they will give me more work" and a 5-star rating. It's pretty obvious that such ratings have only been given in the hope of being rewared for the 5 stars with more work.
- and finally - one that I'm guilty of myself - people new to Proz (or new to working with agencies) may find the cooperation with some agencies a real pleasure but only later (when they have a broader range of agency clients to compare) do they realize that the agency in question actually isn't that great because other agencies are much better and truly deserve the 5 stars. But if you've already given 5 stars to a mediocre agency, there's no room left for differentiation. Personally, I've gone back and edited some of my early ratings but how many people here really do that? (and aside from that, during the time the "wrong" rating is still up, it may already give the wrong impression to others).
And finally, after a while, you can easily tell the good agencies from the bad ones simply by looking at the first e-mail you receive from a prospective agency client. (with a few exceptions, but from my experience, the BB wasn't helpful with these exceptions either)
So, what difference does the BB really make here?
| | | | | Blaming the victim? | Mar 10, 2011 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Which means that if I see any negative BB entry by any of those special candidates who complain about non-payment, I don't give a ... uhm, much.
I take it you mean that those translators are bad and thus don't deserve to be paid. This may very well be true, but it's also very likely that bad translators gravitate towards bad agencies and burn each other. If the agency is generally good, it will only have the rare entry made by one of these "special candidates". If it has a lot of them, I'll be triply wary.
Simone Linke wrote:
- I am not allowed to post details on the board regarding scammers unless I have lost money. How can Proz claim to be a site for translators if the only way to warn others about scams is to actually lose money??!! (i.e.: if I notice a scam in time and don't fall for it, I am not allowed to warn others because - per the BB rules - I can only rate a company if I have completed a project for them) --> result: the BB doesn't contain many scams and thus doesn't fulfill its purpose as a "blacklist" directory
This definitely needs to be fixed. Proz might consider creating a separate blacklist with probable scammer details posted in it. It would save a lot of grief.
[Edited at 2011-03-11 01:37 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Франция
Local time: 09:39
французский => немецкий
+ ...
| There is something... | Mar 11, 2011 |
There is something I don't like about the concept of a separate blacklist not involving an actual business relationship. Methinks that such a list would open the door to defamation.
Furthermore, there is the Scams forum - and there is no need to post names (be they actual or imaginary) as long as we give details about the scamming scheme.
It seems to me that scammers or dishonest agencies will use widely accepted practices to reach their objectives rather than i... See more There is something I don't like about the concept of a separate blacklist not involving an actual business relationship. Methinks that such a list would open the door to defamation.
Furthermore, there is the Scams forum - and there is no need to post names (be they actual or imaginary) as long as we give details about the scamming scheme.
It seems to me that scammers or dishonest agencies will use widely accepted practices to reach their objectives rather than inventing totally original ways to defraud translators. Maybe we should allow ourselves to reconsider our acceptance of such practices. That is, if we are not so crying for projects...
[Edited at 2011-03-11 06:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Португалия
Local time: 08:39
немецкий => английский
+ ...
| Don't forget the second word! | Mar 11, 2011 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
One word.
Hunger.
Stupidity.
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Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 09:39
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
| BB is about... | Mar 11, 2011 |
Simone Linke wrote:
- I am not allowed to post details on the board regarding scammers unless I have lost money. How can Proz claim to be a site for translators if the only way to warn others about scams is to actually lose money??!! (i.e.: if I notice a scam in time and don't fall for it...
One problem here is slander. If ProZ.com allows translators to make comments on outsourcers with whom they have no existing business relationship, ProZ.com can land in a lot of hot water if one of those outsourcers say "prove it, or we'll sue!".
Another problem is this:: even in the Scams forum we already see people posting comments about outsourcers who are not scammers but who simply have less than ideal business practices (some of which are simply cultural or country-specific differences). We've even had posts in the Scams forum from translators who call ultra low rates a scam. Imagine how useless a Blue Board would become if ProZ.com would allow such ratings on it. As soon as an outsourcer posts a job, anyone whose idea of a fair rate is higher than that outsourcer's offered rate would rush to the Blue Board to post negative comments about the outsourcer. That won't be helpful, surely.
...result: the BB doesn't contain many scams and thus doesn't fulfill its purpose as a "blacklist" directory
Scam implies intended malice. A poorly run business may have good intentions despite its bad business practices. The Blue Board fulfils its purpose of warning translators about outsourcers with poor business practices.
- the number of available characters to comment on your rating is way, way too short; it's impossible to provide sufficient details and explain your rating
...comments like "I enjoy working for XYZ and I hope they will give me more work" and a 5-star rating. It's pretty obvious that such ratings have only been given in the hope of being rewared for the 5 stars with more work.
Yes, but why would a translator hope for more work from an outsourcer if that outsourcers has poor business practices (e.g. rude PMs, late payments, low fees, etc.)? The answer is: if the translator is happy with the outsourcer (i.e. with the work and money he gets from the outsourcer), he will give a high rating regardless, but if the translator is dissatisfied with the outsourcers' PMs' attitudes, payment schedules or fees, then posting a high rating (if high ratings would lead to more work) will lead to only more of that rudeness, late payments and low fees... and posting a high rating won't make the PMs friendlier, the payments quicker or the fees higher. Even if a high rating leads to more jobs for that translator, it would only be more jobs of the kind that he doesn't really want.
And finally, after a while, you can easily tell the good agencies from the bad ones simply by looking at the first e-mail you receive from a prospective agency client. ... So, what difference does the BB really make here?
If you truly believe that you can judge whether an agency's PMs are friendly or rude, whether they pay on time or very, very late, whether they negotiate very low rates aggressively, etc, simply by looking at the first e-mail you get from them, well... then you don't need to use the Blue Board.
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