| Страниц в теме: < [1 2] | Grammar and Punctuation Автор темы: Louisa Berry
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| Grammar vs. creativity | Aug 24, 2010 |
Clare Barnes wrote:
My understanding of English grammar has come about almost solely through teaching English to Swedes and helping to correct their mistakes (and going and checking in my own recently acquired grammar books). My mum did teacher training in the 1970s and has been indoctrinated into believing that teaching grammar is a bad thing, although I really can't get her to put forward a logical argument as to why this should be the case!
I believe the reason your mother felt that way may have been due to the fact that a number of schools (or at least the ones that I attended) have moved away from a lot of hefty grammar rules and have rather included more creative writing in their lessons and tests. As important as grammar is, the English language is constantly changing, and what was considered 'work of an illiterate' yesterday will likely be accepted as 'modern English' tomorrow. For a writer, it is then assumed, it is more important to focus on what one wants to say and how they will express it, as opposed to concentrating on immaculate grammar.
| | | | Jessica Noyes 
США
Local time: 16:13
Член ProZ.com
испанский => английский
+ ...
| Translators need grammar | Aug 25, 2010 |
A good case can be made for the average citizen not needing much grammar study, and for focusing on expressing meaning in a clear, organized fashion.
We, however, as translators are in a different position. Language is not just our medium, for us, it is an end in itself. Just as a doctor should know every part of the human body, so should we understand the grammar, history, and linguistics of the languages in which we work. It aids us in producing top quality work, and also stands us... See more A good case can be made for the average citizen not needing much grammar study, and for focusing on expressing meaning in a clear, organized fashion.
We, however, as translators are in a different position. Language is not just our medium, for us, it is an end in itself. Just as a doctor should know every part of the human body, so should we understand the grammar, history, and linguistics of the languages in which we work. It aids us in producing top quality work, and also stands us in good stead when we are challenged by a client, or a PM -- As language service providers we can't just say, "Well, it sounded right to me," we should know why we have chosen a word form, a certain word order, or a particular punctuation mark. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
Великобритания
Local time: 21:13
французский => английский
+ ...
| On the utility of "understanding grammar"... | Aug 25, 2010 |
Jessica Noyes wrote:
A good case can be made for the average citizen not needing much grammar study, and for focusing on expressing meaning in a clear, organized fashion.
We, however, as translators are in a different position. Language is not just our medium, for us, it is an end in itself. Just as a doctor should know every part of the human body, so should we understand the grammar, history, and linguistics of the languages in which we work. It aids us in producing top quality work, and also stands us in good stead when we are challenged by a client, or a PM -- As language service providers we can't just say, "Well, it sounded right to me," we should know why we have chosen a word form, a certain word order, or a particular punctuation mark.
I think this depends in part on what you envisage by "understanding grammar" and what you envisage your role as a translator to be. I think "understanding grammar" could be interpreted as meaning at least a couple of things:
- being able to consciously explain the grammatical decisions which you as a native speaker of your language unconsciously make as you write (crudely, understanding "descriptive grammar")
- knowing about and being able to explain somebody else's conscious opinions about grammar/language use (crudely, understanding "prescriptive grammar")
In the case of descriptive grammar, I would argue that to a large extent the thing your client is paying you for are your instinctive decisions, whether or not you can consciously explain them or not. Imagine for example a scenario where you have written the following sentence:
"Some children were playing in the field. They were called Peter and Paul."
and your client says that you should delete the word "some":
"Children were playing in the field. They were called Peter and Paul."
In this case, I would argue that the paragraph is more natural with the word "some". I see two main ways to explain why I want to keep the word "some":
Explanation 1: "As a native educated speaker of English, I feel that it sounds more natural to include the word 'some', and in fact a little odd not to include it."
Explanation 2: "Native speakers of English tend to use bare nominals when the referent is indefinite or unidentified, and to use the determiner 'some' when the referent is definite or identifiable. Since the children are named here, it is therefore more appropriate to say 'some children' rather than just 'children'."
Now, if the contract that I had with my client was to give them an English lesson, then maybe I would opt for explanation 2. But if the job I have agreed to undertake is a translation, then I would really expect explanation 1 to suffice. (And I wonder if the PM would understand or care about explanation 2 anyway...)
As far as points of prescriptive grammar/usage are concerned, I think it's important to understand that these are simply a particular author's opinion, possibly based on flawed logic or at least on a particular (mis)understanding of how language works. If your client is specifically paying you to follow a particular author's prescriptive opinions, then that's one matter. But if they're not and you decide to follow them, you need to think about whether you personally can stand up for that opinion, or if you're just "spouting something you've read or been taught", and whether following your favourite Fowlerism actually improves your translation from the client's point of view.
(That said just occasionally, I have explained to a client why a particular prescriptive grammar "rule" is total nonesense and that their text will actually sound better if they ignore it.)
Finally, some people bemoan the "decline in teaching grammar". But I'm not sure that "grammar" has ever really been taught in schools in a terribly useful way or in a way that encourages intelligent thinking about the way language works.
[Edited at 2010-08-25 05:15 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
Великобритания
Local time: 21:13
Член ProZ.com c 2008
итальянский => английский
Miss Strutt wrote:
...... will likely be accepted as 'modern English' tomorrow.
I would say "probably be accepted" . Although I've noticed that some Americans now find it perfectly acceptable to say "likely be accepted", I cannot bring myself to adopt it.
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| Can english good? | Aug 25, 2010 |
If you think you're pretty good at English, follow the advice given above by 'Tom in London' and you will think again.
boldly to go
to boldly go
to go boldly
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