| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Translation Iteration Experiment English-Spanish: the results! Автор темы: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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keelin feeney 
Ирландия
Local time: 21:18
Член ProZ.com c 2007
испанский => английский
+ ...
| Fascinating... | Feb 23, 2010 |
I think that this experiment is really fascinating. I'd have loved to have been part of it to compare my translation with the original. I have to admit that I am quite shocked with the number of mistakes and changes, especially considering that the text is really quite short. It would be interesting to know how many of the translators really did read over their translations before submitting them.
Fortunately, the machine translation is a lot worse so we should not be out of jobs f... See more I think that this experiment is really fascinating. I'd have loved to have been part of it to compare my translation with the original. I have to admit that I am quite shocked with the number of mistakes and changes, especially considering that the text is really quite short. It would be interesting to know how many of the translators really did read over their translations before submitting them.
Fortunately, the machine translation is a lot worse so we should not be out of jobs for a very long time as long as companies need quality translations, and olé for proofreading! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | While we're on that bit.... | Feb 23, 2010 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
It's not obvious to me. Let me use an example from the same text:
(costs, delays, blah blah)
This is the only substantial change of meaning I've noticed but it goes to show that professionals don't guarantee anything.
... it might also be worth noting that, in addition to your observation, the concept of errors as a factor has also been introduced.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 22:18
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
| On assumptions and blame | Feb 23, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
I for one would be interested to know from the translator who changed 120k to 12k why he did it. Perhaps he had a good reason (whether I agree with him or not). I would also like to ask the translator who decided to leave out the one sentence, why did he do it. Perhaps he had a good reason too.
I think I can answer this one: the figure 120,000 was unadvertedly changed to 112,000 at some stage, and then to 12,000 later on. In the Wikipedia page about Paine they mention 120,000, so these two changes and the omission simply look like plain mistakes to me...
Of course, there is value in trying to guess what went wrong, but I believe it can also be useful to ask the translators themselves what they were thinking. The object of my suggestion was not to apportion blame -- after all, the translators remain anonymous even if they answer. And an answer like "oops, I made a mistake" would be just as valuable as any other answer.
| | | | Lori Cirefice
Франция
Local time: 22:18
французский => английский
| Very interesting experiment | Feb 23, 2010 |
I would like to know whether the translators responsible for the number changes and sentence omission were using a CAT tool or not?
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Emma Goldsmith
Испания
Local time: 22:18
Член ProZ.com c 2004
испанский => английский
| errors and CAT tool use | Feb 23, 2010 |
Interesting to hear that the errors were not made by a single person, but several different people.
I'm sure they would have got picked up through proofreading (I must admit that when it was my turn I accidentally turned the surname Paine into Pain (in fact Word changed it on my behalf) and I didn't notice until I was proofreading it!).
Lack of proofreading may mean 2 things:
1. Rush job (also no liability at the end of the day?)
2. Most of us rely on CAT to... See more Interesting to hear that the errors were not made by a single person, but several different people.
I'm sure they would have got picked up through proofreading (I must admit that when it was my turn I accidentally turned the surname Paine into Pain (in fact Word changed it on my behalf) and I didn't notice until I was proofreading it!).
Lack of proofreading may mean 2 things:
1. Rush job (also no liability at the end of the day?)
2. Most of us rely on CAT tools that would have picked up
a) number error
b) missed sentence
so we forgot to double check these things as we weren't using a CAT in this case?
Also, there may be some bias because in a back translation I know I am looking for something that sounds really comfortable in English so I am thinking of how the original might have been worded and where the Spanish came from rather than what it actually says? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Less than great result | Feb 23, 2010 |
This was a great idea, a great experiment and, in my opinion, a less than great result.
Not being a paid job or not having editors should not be used to explain (or excuse) the outcome. Professionalism should have prevailed.
Doing it in a rush or in the middle of another project should not be used as excuses either. There were plenty of volunteers waiting in line. Anyone feeling that the project would take too much time from their schedules or tempted to take it less s... See more This was a great idea, a great experiment and, in my opinion, a less than great result.
Not being a paid job or not having editors should not be used to explain (or excuse) the outcome. Professionalism should have prevailed.
Doing it in a rush or in the middle of another project should not be used as excuses either. There were plenty of volunteers waiting in line. Anyone feeling that the project would take too much time from their schedules or tempted to take it less seriously than a regular job should have opt out and let somebody else take part.
By the time it was my turn, I could feel that the English original had suffered some changes and was beginning to not sound very natural so, just as Emma, I found myself trying to decipher how the original could have been worded.
Somehow, I do not find any consolation in the fact that even after so many iterations the translation turned out better than a machine translation. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jacana54 (X)
Уругвай
английский => испанский
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I would have lost all my money on this one because the mistakes were not where I expected.
CAT tools would have made a difference, I think, a positive one.
Paid/unpaid should not be a decisive factor because we all asked to participate and we knew that it was on an unpaid basis.
Another survey, Pablo? Of the "How do you feel about...?" kind. It might enable many people to express their opinions without fear of being unkind the participants.
T... See more I would have lost all my money on this one because the mistakes were not where I expected.
CAT tools would have made a difference, I think, a positive one.
Paid/unpaid should not be a decisive factor because we all asked to participate and we knew that it was on an unpaid basis.
Another survey, Pablo? Of the "How do you feel about...?" kind. It might enable many people to express their opinions without fear of being unkind the participants.
Thanks for organizing this, Tomás, and for publishing the survey and the results.
 ▲ Collapse
| | | | P Forgas
Бразилия
Local time: 18:18
португальский => испанский
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I made one of the mistakes. I did change 112,000 to 12,000 and I do not have any explanations (nor pardon. Right now I am considering suicide). I did not use any CAT. I probably would not have made this error if I had used Wordfast.
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
/SOURCE/ Paine's problems lay not with the writing and selling, but with the printing and production, which delayed him and cost more than expected.
where costs may or may not result from delays, is not the same as
/TARGET/ Although Paine had no problems writing or selling his work, there were a lot of printing and production errors that caused delays, making costs soar much higher than expected.
where it is not only implied that delays caused the costs but that they were the only reason.
This is the only substantial change of meaning I've noticed but it goes to show that professionals don't guarantee anything.
and what about :
A movement is underway that is revolutionizing the way businesspeople produce printed pages.
against
The process that will revolutionise the development of printed advertising is already under way.
I think the meaning was changed substantially also.
P. (embarrassed to death)
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| Opinionated translations? | Feb 23, 2010 |
Luisa Ramos, CT wrote:
By the time it was my turn, I could feel that the English original had suffered some changes and was beginning to not sound very natural so, just as Emma, I found myself trying to decipher how the original could have been worded.
Indeed, the mental position did play a role here, but I see it from a different point of view after the short email exchanges I had upon receiving each translation. I saw that, in the process of trying to grasp what the original text was, the text received for translation was judged by some as being too simple, and was translated into a more complicated, verbose or dramatic text than it actually was.
Apart from the actual errors on data and the omissions, one thing I notice is that we sometimes tend to translate what we think the text should say... not what it actually says.
| | | | | CAT tools and data errors | Feb 23, 2010 |
How would the use of a CAT tool have prevented this error? Is it because you would see the source and target text side-by-side during proofreading? Or does Wordfast automatically insert numbers and data in the target-text field or inform you when there is such a discrepancy? I am curious how this works.
Lots of interesting stuff here. Including how an exclamation mark (!) somehow got inserted after the first sentence.
P Forgas wrote:
I probably would not have made this error if I had used Wordfast.
[Edited at 2010-02-23 14:25 GMT]
| | | | P Forgas
Бразилия
Local time: 18:18
португальский => испанский
+ ...
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
How would the use of a CAT tool have prevented this error? Is it because you would see the source and target text side-by-side during proofreading? Or does Wordfast automatically insert numbers and data in the target-text field or inform you when there is such a discrepancy? I am curious how this works.
Wordfast can automatically insert numbers and data in the target-text field AND can inform you when there is such a discrepancy OR both, depending on the configuration.
P.
| | | | | Errare "humanorum" est ;-) | Feb 23, 2010 |
Patricia, your honesty is admirable, but please do not punish yourself! I think any of us could have slipped in a similar situation.
Having said that, indeed I think that using a CAT would have helped, basically because most users of CAT tools would have copied the source segment to the targetand would have overwritten the translatable parts, leaving the data and facts as is. Also the destruction of a full sentence would have been far more difficult to accomplish if a CAT tool was u... See more Patricia, your honesty is admirable, but please do not punish yourself! I think any of us could have slipped in a similar situation.
Having said that, indeed I think that using a CAT would have helped, basically because most users of CAT tools would have copied the source segment to the targetand would have overwritten the translatable parts, leaving the data and facts as is. Also the destruction of a full sentence would have been far more difficult to accomplish if a CAT tool was used, I reckon. ▲ Collapse
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Lori Cirefice
Франция
Local time: 22:18
французский => английский
P Forgas wrote:
Wordfast can automatically insert numbers and data in the target-text field AND can inform you when there is such a discrepancy OR both, depending on the configuration.
P.
Yes, Wordfast has some great features for handling numbers - this is the point I was getting at in my above question. But then again, regular Wordfast users might be so used to letting the tool handle the numbers that they let their guard down and don't check numbers as closely during the proofreading stage? Food for thought. Thanks for your honesty P. Forgas.
| | | | | I agree, Tomás | Feb 23, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
...we sometimes tend to translate what we think the text should say... not what it actually says.
Although I do not remember translating what I supposed the original text said, I certainly pondered what the original wording could have been, and I mentioned it when I returned the piece. To avoid any possible contamination, I should have done it spontaneously, without trying to "look back".
And of all the excuses and explanations the acceptable one is that to err is human.
| | | | Frances Leggett
Великобритания
Local time: 21:18
итальянский => английский
+ ...
| translation studying technique... | Feb 23, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Frances Leggett wrote:
At the Liceo Classico in Italy, one of my friends told me that while studying Ancient Greek and Latin, they all had to translate texts from Italian - Ancient Greek and Italian - Latin and then pass the text along and have a classmate translate it back into Italian to find out where they were going wrong. This is not the sort of exercise that was included in my MA in Translation Studies but I think it would be an interesting skill-developing technique!
Wow. Indeed I think it would be a really interesting thing to include in any translation study programme. Just to clarify this more: do you mean that the next person only had the Greek or Latin translation to work on?
The students at this particular Liceo actually translated from a source text in Italian into Ancient Greek or Latin as an exercise to test their knowledge of vocabulary and writing in those two languages (poor kids, would have been a bit less harsh to translate from Ancient Greek and Latin into Italian) and then the next student along would translate from the Ancient Greek or Latin back into Italian. I imagine they were small texts and most work was done in pairs and obviously there would have been a high degree or teacher correction control going on, but my friend certainly seems to know her Latin and Ancient Greek very well!
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