| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Translating into languages other than Mother tongue Автор темы: Rolf Kern
|
|---|
Kirsten Bodart 
Великобритания
Local time: 09:41
голландский => английский
+ ...
| In most countries | Jan 1, 2013 |
I would say, the job of translator focuses on both ways. In Belgium too. The result might not be quite as 'English' as the English speakers might wish, but the system facilitates that. You can moan about it all you like, but that fact remains. Misplaced confidence in one's own language skills, then, might not be too uncommon.
I personally have a translator friend, who once asked us for help with a perfectly simple legal text, one sentence. Now, she passed all her exams and things. W... See more I would say, the job of translator focuses on both ways. In Belgium too. The result might not be quite as 'English' as the English speakers might wish, but the system facilitates that. You can moan about it all you like, but that fact remains. Misplaced confidence in one's own language skills, then, might not be too uncommon.
I personally have a translator friend, who once asked us for help with a perfectly simple legal text, one sentence. Now, she passed all her exams and things. We now write that kind of text ourselves, but she couldn't even understand it. As far as I know, she rarely reads proper books in English, nor watches the BBC extensively. Not as we do, starved from interesting things as we would otherwise be.
And indeed, the language knowledge and ability of English speakers in general is getting so bad that non-natives will have to be relied on in the future. Even for proofreading you couldn't trust them, as knowledge of languages in general is tied to knowledge of your native one.
I would go with Jose Henrique on this, although that will of course displease many.
Now, if there are weird things like strange speech marks or apostrophes in this post, blame the Czech keyboard. Bl**dy thing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 08:41
иврит => английский
| Largely agree.... | Jan 1, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
It is ironic, but the keenest advocates of the native language only principle (as opposed to native language whenever possible in balance with other factors) seem to be English speakers. This may not be entirely true, but it is an impression I get from reading discussions mainly in English.
I'm not sure this is entirely correct. One of the things that the epic Summer thread showed us is that there are many non-English speakers equally "on the same side" of the fence. Off-hand I seem to remember native German and Spanish speakers who also believed in the "native-preferably" ("native-only" isn't really very accurate since nobody was advocating a blanket ban on non-native translation) philosophy. I think the skewed impression comes from the fact that English is merely the source language in question in most cases and if circumstances were different and French or German was the dominant world language and the rates of non-native translation in these languages went through the roof (with equal levels of abuse) then the native speakers of these languages would be equally vocal.
I don't know about other nations, but I have just been reading that in the UK only nine per cent (9%) of 14 to 16-year-olds can use a foreign language independently at a basic level. (European Survey on Language Competences). In Sweden and Malta, at the other end of the scale, the figures are 82%.
For the next generation at least, the British will have to accept non-natives translating into English, because there just are not enough English natives with the knowledge of other languages to do it.
Perhaps so if Britain was the only English speaking nation, but surely even with the widespread disregard for language learning across the Anglosphere, the numbers should add up for many of the most common language pairs...? (I'm not saying that just because there will be enough it means non-native translation shouldn't occur, merely that the numbers game shouldn't really come into it for the majority of language pairs even with the abysmal numbers of language students).
This is already the case with Danish, for instance, and many other EU languages. While we all acknowlege that other things being equal, a native speaker of the target language is likely to produce the best translation, there are a great many other factors that can tip the balance in real-life situations.
Only the most radical would not agree with that. I see nothing contradictory in supporting a "native-preferable" approach yet acknowledging the exceptions and real-life constraints etc.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 08:41
иврит => английский
| What's wrong with scousers? | Jan 1, 2013 |
ISAAC PRADEL LEAL wrote:
a semi-illiterate scouser on the basis of his being an English "native"... unless of course I'd the text to be strictly localized into Alabama or Texan English!
I don't think scouser should come into it, NOBODY who is semi-literate should be touting their services as a professional translator and only a fool would appoint someone semi-literate to be their translator. In addition, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a speaker of "broken English" translating into it either!
| | | | | Two questions Isaac | Jan 1, 2013 |
ISAAC PRADEL LEAL wrote:
For a text to be translated into English, I'd rather have it translated by a professional translator, speaker of International Broken English, instead of by a semi-illiterate scouser on the basis of his being an English "native"... unless of course I'd the text to be strictly localized into Alabama or Texan English!
1. In what kind of situation do you imaging that your only other alternative would be a "semi-illiterate scouser" rather than a professional, literate, native translator?
2. Why would you want a Scouser (a native from Liverpool, UK) to translate text localised for Alabama or Texas (US last time I looked at a map)?
| | |
|
|
|
Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 08:41
иврит => английский
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
2. Why would you want a Scouser (a native from Liverpool, UK) to translate text localised for Alabama or Texas (US last time I looked at a map)?
I was wondering that too.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Phil Hand
Китай
Local time: 16:41
китайский => английский
| Not to get into this argument again... | Jan 1, 2013 |
So I won't try to rebut anyone, just note an interesting thing I found out just now.
In my pair, there are a lot of people who are native Chinese who regularly translate into English (and some of them even naughtily claim to be native in English to get eligibility for jobs). I thought I'd look at other languages, and it turns out that there is much less of this in the pairs Chinese-French and Chinese-German. Don't know what to make of that, really, but I guess it does show that this... See more So I won't try to rebut anyone, just note an interesting thing I found out just now.
In my pair, there are a lot of people who are native Chinese who regularly translate into English (and some of them even naughtily claim to be native in English to get eligibility for jobs). I thought I'd look at other languages, and it turns out that there is much less of this in the pairs Chinese-French and Chinese-German. Don't know what to make of that, really, but I guess it does show that this is mainly an English problem. ▲ Collapse
| | | | ISAAC PRADEL LEAL
Испания
Local time: 09:41
Член ProZ.com c 2011
французский => испанский
+ ...
| The main point : | Jan 1, 2013 |
There are good & bad translations and translators, from or into any language... no matter what their mother, native, culture, or father's language is... Let the market, (i.e., client) decide whether their produce is up-to-standard...
| | |
|
|
|
Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 09:41
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
| An argument for translating FROM your native language | Jan 1, 2013 |
Rolf Kern wrote:
Ms. S. with Italian mother tongue [translated] a legal translation into English [and] supposed that ... the translation [would] be reviewed ... by an English mothertongue proofreader.
While I'm firmly in the translate-INTO-your-native-language camp, I can see how it may be argued that translating FROM your native language could make more sense. Here's how it works:
When you write, you are in full control of what you write. You can decide for yourself which words or phrases you want to use. If there are words or phrases that you do not know, then you simply don't use them, but your writing will still say exactly what you're trying to say. The fact is that you can communicate with a smaller vocabulary just as efficiently as someone with a larger vocabulary (up to a certain point, of course). When you read, however, you are not in full control of what you read. You cannot choose what words or phrases the author had used. And if you are unfamiliar with some of those words or phrases, then you can't just ignore them. If you write, you can avoid words or phrases that you feel unsure of, but when you read, you can't avoid those words or phrases. You absolutely have to deal with them.
Now, when you translate, which is more important -- being more of an expert in the source text language, or being more of an expert in the target text language? If you're not an expert in the target text language, the target text may not be as elegant as it could have been, but it will be adequate. But if you're not an expert in the source language, you may well miss meaning when you read it, and meaning missed during reading will not be transferred during writing.
| | | | ISAAC PRADEL LEAL
Испания
Local time: 09:41
Член ProZ.com c 2011
французский => испанский
+ ...
| Then clients are fools... | Jan 1, 2013 |
When outsourcing into French or into Spanish or into German translations to Indian or Chineese based translation companies on the basis of their being simply "cheap", as if they had some specific competence in the target languages... Then we should not accept job offers from "cowboy" agencies who make the commitment to deliver a job they can't do, or can't even decently pay for...
| | | | | Happy New Year, everyone. I just think that the decisions made by various clients should be on | Jan 1, 2013 |
a case by case basis. I agree, that a high quality translation can be, in most cases, produced only into the language one is fully immersed in, and uses it everyday. However, there are some exceptions, when translators have to translate into the languages they are just fluent in, because no-one knows the source languages well enough to translate from them. In such cases, the translators should probably work closely with a good editor. I just wonder, where did this whole "translating only into a ... See more a case by case basis. I agree, that a high quality translation can be, in most cases, produced only into the language one is fully immersed in, and uses it everyday. However, there are some exceptions, when translators have to translate into the languages they are just fluent in, because no-one knows the source languages well enough to translate from them. In such cases, the translators should probably work closely with a good editor. I just wonder, where did this whole "translating only into a native language" theory originated from? And when? It is a totally foreign idea to many philologists. Also, often the source languages are totally ignored -- it takes really years of studying to know the source language well enough to translate from it. I have an impression that some people may think, that they can learn such languages as Russian, or Polish -- not to mention Lithuanian, for example, in two--three years to be able to produce high quality translations. I think it is a total misconception. Sometimes it is very hard to understand the source -- even harder than to beautifully phrase the extracted meaning in the target language. I have know those languages all of my life -- for over forty years, and I still don't know sometimes what they are talking about in the original text -- depending how cohesive the text is.
[Edited at 2013-01-01 18:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 08:41
иврит => английский
| This thread is going the same way as Lisa's epic one... | Jan 1, 2013 |
Not entirely unexpected though.
Also, unfortunately Isaac I can't respond to "Whole texts make sense... " as I can't honestly say I understand it.
Phil illustrates nicely what I was getting at in my previous post to Christine:
Phil Hand wrote:
In my pair, there are a lot of people who are native Chinese who regularly translate into English (and some of them even naughtily claim to be native in English to get eligibility for jobs). I thought I'd look at other languages, and it turns out that there is much less of this in the pairs Chinese-French and Chinese-German. Don't know what to make of that, really, but I guess it does show that this is mainly an English problem.
| | |
|
|
|
| The proof is in the x-mas pudding | Jan 1, 2013 |
ISAAC PRADEL LEAL wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
2. Why would you want a Scouser (a native from Liverpool, UK) to translate text localised for Alabama or Texas (US last time I looked at a map)?
I was wondering that too.
un·less
/ənˈles/
Conjunction
Except if (used to introduce the case in which a statement being made is not true or valid).
... Would apply to the speaker of International Broken English (not the "scouser")... instead of the Alabama or Texan English (or should I say : American English / or American), which is most obviously a sarcasm... If I ever thought the such forms of localization were legitimate ones... Sad by true my thread on excess of localization, or the dumbing down of the industry was censored... Moreover while trying to point to the idiocy of some concerns through politcal incorrectness, I'll use "ebonics" next time as an example... Sure you may find semi-iliterate speakers of "scouser" (as a language of its own) who may pretend being fluid at ebonics too!!
Thank you, you've just proven why translation should generally be conducted by someone who is native or has a native command of the target language.
Your dictionary is "obviously" not telling you that "unless" is used to contradict a previous statement (conjunctions have this funny habit of joining two or more parts).
Now I'm off to the bookies before they close to back this thread reaching at least 50 pages.
| | | |
Ty Kendall wrote:
....might not be normal for everyone else. Indeed, the leading professional bodies would seem to disagree. Their stance is quite clear and documented (i.e. that a professional translator should only translate into his/her native language).
Ok, the world is different.
At the same time who are "the leading professional bodies" for us? We have our customs and our practice and we think that our customs and practice are good. I tell not about myself, but about a country with population about 140 millions of people.
If you want, an only "leading professional body" for me is a client. If a client is satisfied with my translation from Russian into Italian, no one "leading professional body" can lay the law for me. I even will not ask anybody about any permission.
Certainly, some exceptions can be. I mean literary translation, especially poems, lyrics and other works in verse. While my statement (possibility of translation into a foreign languarge) concerns first of all tecnical, legal, medical and other types of translation.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Translating into languages other than Mother tongue | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
