| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4] | New gender-neutral Bible translation angers conservatives
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| | Steven Capsuto 
США
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Sona Petrosyan wrote:
if we believe it is the Word of God.
...Which, of course, not even all people of faith believe. There are as many assumptions about Biblical source texts as there are belief systems. And a translation will reflect the particular assumptions that the translator, editors and publisher brought to it. That's to be expected.
And I think it would be very useful for us to think over the last sentences of the Bible...
The Bible I was raised with ends with the words "Let him go up" (final words of Second Chronicles). If people can't even agree which books are in the source text and what order they belong in, obviously people are not going to agree 100% on a translation either.
So when we read a Bible translation, we need to know what assumptions the translators made and who the target audience was. This is why I gravitate toward well-annotated editions, preferably with an introduction explaining the translation approach.
It's a fascinating read even if you just approach it as a highly influential ancient cultural text, but the nature of the source language(s) means that a lot of interpretive decisions and even some guesswork are part of the translation process (as several people have outlined well earlier in this thread).
[Edited at 2011-03-29 16:19 GMT]
| | | | Sona Petrosyan
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
If people can't even agree which books are in the source text and what order they belong in, obviously people are not going to agree 100% on a translation either.
In fact I agree with everything in the Bible and I agree on translations too, because I believe God agrees on them.
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I really long for a translation of the Bible into Spanish that says EXACTLY what was said in the original.
I just wanted to say this is what all believers do.
[Խմբագրված է ժամը 2011-03-30 06:15 GMT-ին]
[Խմբագրված է ժամը 2011-03-30 06:15 GMT-ին]
| | | | Steven Capsuto
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| Not so cut and dried | Mar 30, 2011 |
Sona Petrosyan wrote:
Steven Capsuto wrote:
If people can't even agree which books are in the source text and what order they belong in, obviously people are not going to agree 100% on a translation either.
In fact I agree with everything in the Bible
But whose Bible? Some branches of Christianity consider all or some of the Apocrypha as part of the Bible, while others do not. And obviously the Christian Bible contains a bunch of books not in the Jewish Bible. In other words, when we say "the Bible" we're not all talking about the same text.
My point here is that this is not as simple as you seem to want it to be. As for whether all believers consider the Bible to be the word of God, they do not. There are large religious denominations that believe in God but which believe the books we're discussing are the product of humans reaching up rather than God reaching down.
All these differing views affect translations. And regardless which beliefs a translator holds, and how literally they try to translate, the ambiguity of the texts means they must interpret and disambiguate, filling in the blanks with their religion's assumptions: your religion's assumptions in the case of the Bible you read, my religion's assumptions in the case of the Bible I read. As one of my Sunday School teachers used to say, even when we're reading the same texts, people of different faiths or denominations are each reading them through a different "filter" based on their beliefs.
[Edited at 2011-03-30 15:07 GMT]
| | | | | Agreeing with everything in the Bible... | Mar 30, 2011 |
...is futile. Quite impossible if you ask me. The Bible is a story spanning many centuries and at the versy least two big covenants with God. In some things, these covenants have differing rules, and therefore you cannot agree with everything: either you take one or the other.
As a Christian, and with the burden of my very many shortcomings, I do my best to comply with the currently valid covenant... and of course fail disastrously. I do agree with the covenant, but find it very har... See more ...is futile. Quite impossible if you ask me. The Bible is a story spanning many centuries and at the versy least two big covenants with God. In some things, these covenants have differing rules, and therefore you cannot agree with everything: either you take one or the other.
As a Christian, and with the burden of my very many shortcomings, I do my best to comply with the currently valid covenant... and of course fail disastrously. I do agree with the covenant, but find it very hard to comply with all of it!
Again, I really think it is impossible to agree with (and eventually follow) everything in such varied, lengthy and heterogeneous compilation. ▲ Collapse
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Sona Petrosyan
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
As one of my Sunday School teachers used to say, even when we're reading the same texts, people of different faiths or denominations are each reading them through a different "filter" based on their beliefs.
[Edited at 2011-03-30 15:07 GMT]
My point is a translation should be kept to its original to the highest possible extent, in order not to add another filter (of translation) to the filter of individual understanding influenced by many many factors. IMHO as a believer.
Of course, I think it's not that easy, to put it mildly...
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Agreeing with everything in the Bible...
...is futile. Quite impossible if you ask me. The Bible is a story spanning many centuries and at the versy least two big covenants with God. In some things, these covenants have differing rules, and therefore you cannot agree with everything: either you take one or the other.
As a Christian, and with the burden of my very many shortcomings, I do my best to comply with the currently valid covenant... and of course fail disastrously. I do agree with the covenant, but find it very hard to comply with all of it!
Again, I really think it is impossible to agree with (and eventually follow) everything in such varied, lengthy and heterogeneous compilation.
By saying I agree I don't mean that I am able to follow the covenants and that have no shortcomings as a Christian and I don't fail disastrously while trying to comply with them. Not at all! By saying 'I agree' I mean I believe that whatever He tells us is true. [Խմբագրված է ժամը 2011-03-31 06:13 GMT-ին]
[Խմբագրված է ժամը 2011-03-31 06:16 GMT-ին]
[Խմբագրված է ժամը 2011-03-31 10:17 GMT-ին]
| | | | liz askew
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We could debate this for a long, long time, but essentially I agree with your comment
"My point is a translation should be kept to its original to the highest possible extent, in order not to add another filter (of translation) to the filter of individual understanding influenced by many many factors"
This applies to every text to be translated, not just the Bible.
Who are we to become the judges of all things? This is what is so dangerous about the polit... See more We could debate this for a long, long time, but essentially I agree with your comment
"My point is a translation should be kept to its original to the highest possible extent, in order not to add another filter (of translation) to the filter of individual understanding influenced by many many factors"
This applies to every text to be translated, not just the Bible.
Who are we to become the judges of all things? This is what is so dangerous about the politically correct, they seem to think they are "all-seeing".
I for one try to respect the original writer's words and don't judge him or her on what he/she has written, I am merely the translator. Politically-correct translators are setting themselves up as judges of what is in front of them.
What would a politically correct translator do with a speech by Hitler for example? Change it to make it sound "nice"?
Liz
[Edited at 2011-03-31 15:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steven Capsuto
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You keep using the expression "politically correct" as if it were relevant to this discussion, but you have yet to cite a single case where a translator's sociopolitical views changed the meaning of the source text. All I hear you saying is that it's different from the English translation you're used to (which seems to be the KJV - itself rife with politically motivated choices - or some adaptation of the KJV).
What's hysterical abo... See more You keep using the expression "politically correct" as if it were relevant to this discussion, but you have yet to cite a single case where a translator's sociopolitical views changed the meaning of the source text. All I hear you saying is that it's different from the English translation you're used to (which seems to be the KJV - itself rife with politically motivated choices - or some adaptation of the KJV).
What's hysterical about this discussion is that those participants with some knowledge of the source languages agree that the new renderings are faithful, while some folks who give no indication of knowing the source languages feel qualified to pass judgment and speculate on the translators' motives.
How seriously would you take it if someone started tearing into one of your translations, despite not knowing the source language?
[Edited at 2011-04-01 00:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
How seriously would you take it if someone started tearing into one of your translations, despite not knowing the source language?
Hm... It depends. Would this be a non-Christian? 
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Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
How seriously would you take it if someone started tearing into one of your translations, despite not knowing the source language?
I would consider what that person says at face value. I myself have no problem discussing another translator's translations even if I don't know the source language. Not knowing the target language would be another matter.
| | | | Steven Capsuto
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| Depends on the topic of the criticism | Apr 1, 2011 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I would consider what that person says at face value. I myself have no problem discussing another translator's translations even if I don't know the source language. Not knowing the target language would be another matter.
In this case we're discussing accuracy more than style, so the source language is relevant.
| | | | Steven Capsuto
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Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Hm... It depends. Would this be a non-Christian?
Ahem...
| | | | Sona Petrosyan
Армения
Local time: 12:26
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liz askew wrote:
Who are we to become the judges of all things? This is what is so dangerous about the politically correct, they seem to think they are "all-seeing".
I for one try to respect the original writer's words and don't judge him or her on what he/she has written, I am merely the translator. Politically-correct translators are setting themselves up as judges of what is in front of them.
What would a politically correct translator do with a speech by Hitler for example? Change it to make it sound "nice"?
Liz
[Edited at 2011-03-31 15:37 GMT]
Thank you, liz, for information.
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| Which translations do you mean? | Apr 1, 2011 |
I for one try to respect the original writer's words and don't judge him or her on what he/she has written, I am merely the translator. Politically-correct translators are setting themselves up as judges of what is in front of them.
Hi, Liz,
With which changes you don't agree?
The change we discussed about the fishers of people makes the translation actually closer to the original text than the traditional translation most people are familiar with.
Is there any other particular example where you think that the new translations are farther from the original meaning than the familiar translations?
Daniel
| | | | Sona Petrosyan
Армения
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
Sona Petrosyan wrote:
In fact I agree with everything in the Bible
But whose Bible? Some branches of Christianity consider all or some of the Apocrypha as part of the Bible, while others do not. And obviously the Christian Bible contains a bunch of books not in the Jewish Bible. In other words, when we say "the Bible" we're not all talking about the same text.
(So sorry for the delay in my reply.)
What I am speaking about, is the Christian Bible containing 66 books, not including the apocryphal books. And I mainly read the Armenian Bible, as I prefer to read it in my native tongue. As to the order here it is:
http://www.armenianbiblechurch.org/armenian_bible.htm
As for me, I don't even have the slightest intention to comment on any particular translation provided that I have not even read it.
[Խմբագրված է ժամը 2011-04-08 05:03 GMT-ին]
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