| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3] > | TRANSLATION COMPANIES ARE KILLING THE LINGUISTS BEFORE AI Автор темы: Burcu Erdogan
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Lieven Malaise
Бельгия
Local time: 04:43
Член ProZ.com c 2020
французский => голландский
+ ...
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Leave them alone, please. As if working-class people consist of plumbers only! What is the reason why translators always compare themselves with plumbers? Is it fear? Is it admiration? Or is it simply a lack of phantasy and deeper insight into the real world outside the translation cells?
Almost everybody needs a plumber once in a while, hence knows what their hourly rate is. I don't think you have to look further than that.
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Босния и Герцеговина
Local time: 04:43
Член ProZ.com c 2009
английский => хорватский
+ ...
Andrus Lauringson wrote:
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Leave them alone, please. As if working-class people consist of plumbers only! What is the reason why translators always compare themselves with plumbers? Is it fear? Is it admiration? Or is it simply a lack of phantasy and deeper insight into the real world outside the translation cells?
Maybe it is because many translators work from home and maybe live alone, so meeting a plumber is a true highlight of their day (week) and one of the few precious human contacts that they have?
Anyway, based on this thread, I will now focus on MTPE and plumbing skills to become 100% future-proof.
I laughed hard at the plumber as a highligh of the day. We can always say “Hi” to garbage collectors to express our appreciation of their hard work.
Believe it or not, 80% of plumbing work is manageble on your own, if you just took the time to read online manuals and are in a good physical condition being able to squat while working etc. I am talking about regular low to mid maintenance. We recently bought and replaced a water tank on our own. Was I supposed to call a plumber for this? The waiting time is several weeks, no plumbers anymore in this country, everyone went to work in Germany (hi, Matthias).
I believe everyone using plumbers for comparison is just a coincidence. No special reason. And I have appreciation of all manual labor, e.g. in a restaurant if I like a meal, I always tell the waiter to thank the chef, etc.
| | | | Baran Keki
Турция
Local time: 05:43
Член ProZ.com
английский => турецкий
| You should've told this to the Brits years ago... | Feb 13 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Believe it or not, 80% of plumbing work is manageble on your own, if you just took the time to read online manuals and are in a good physical condition being able to squat while working etc.
They allowed so many Polish and Romanian plumbers into their country 20 years ago, which eventually led to Brexit...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_plumber
I know that plumbing is essential, but it should be done in moderation, otherwise you have an international crisis on your hands..
[Edited at 2025-02-13 18:24 GMT]
| | | | Matthias Brombach
Германия
Local time: 04:43
Член ProZ.com c 2007
голландский => немецкий
+ ...
| Be careful with that... | Feb 13 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Believe it or not, 80% of plumbing work is manageble on your own, if you just took the time to read online manuals ...
...because those manuals could be AI-generated, or worse, translated!
Back to the (off) topic: When I search for "plumber" in the Proz forum, I get 682 matches. Given that the majority of translators are female, many of them seem to have an antagonistic desire or admiration for people who belong to the working class. How lucky for me that I can offer both 
(Chris, please come back!)
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Andrus Lauringson
Эстония
Local time: 05:43
Член ProZ.com c 2022
английский => эстонский
Lingua 5B wrote:
We can always say “Hi” to garbage collectors to express our appreciation of their hard work.
True, true. Unless the translator is a crepuscular/nocturnal animal that rarely greets the early morning life forms like garbage collectors and construction workers with glee.
| | | | Daryo
Великобритания
Local time: 03:43
сербский => английский
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Jose Ruivo wrote:
Daryo wrote:
Jose Ruivo wrote:
and demand is the law of the free market. It's far easier to find a translator - or just google translate, chat gpt, etc - than a plummer!
And while a plummer's probable demand for work remains unchanged, I think, AI is doing most of our work, there will be less work, for the same number of professionals. It creates the result you already know.
I do increasingly MTPE, rather than actual translation work.
'Supply and demand is the law of the free market' - yeah sure, that's a nice sounding mantra - even looks fairly plausible until you start scratching the surface.
And start looking at how such underlying theoretical niceties as 'perfect availability of information' and 'equal negotiating power' translate in the real-life world ... Find me one single case of that happening for real and I'll happily listen to you repeating your mantra as long you wish ...
OTOH I could give far more than one sample of 'a free fox in a free henhouse' type of 'free market'. No need to look very far ... [Edited at 2025-02-12 20:43 GMT]
1) It's not my mantra;
2) I don't like it;
3) It's the sad truth.
The sad true is that there is no real 'free market' [so it is just an empty mantra], at last not in the way it's supposed to be according to some idealised theoretical model. In practice it's a convenient label put on top of something entirely else. Enough digressions.
To go back to the main point of this thread: self-serving intermediaries are indeed doing a pretty good job of harming their own source of revenue.
[Edited at 2025-02-14 12:04 GMT]
| | | | Burcu Erdogan
Турция
Local time: 05:43
Член ProZ.com c 2012
английский => турецкий
+ ...
Автор темы | I am doing my best... | Feb 14 |
This is true, but I wonder the cases in which you'd return with a perfect refusal to the client. For example, about transfer costs... I've been a translator for 18 years and always paid the transfer costs charged by my bank, How is this situation in UK, for example? Or how do you react to the free translation test requests?
I am really curious about the reasons that other translators would reject a client request...
Also, only this morning I saw a job post on Proz from... See more This is true, but I wonder the cases in which you'd return with a perfect refusal to the client. For example, about transfer costs... I've been a translator for 18 years and always paid the transfer costs charged by my bank, How is this situation in UK, for example? Or how do you react to the free translation test requests?
I am really curious about the reasons that other translators would reject a client request...
Also, only this morning I saw a job post on Proz from a company called Flipper; they are paying something like 35 USD for 50,000 "Flipper Points". I really don't know how these companies can come up with ways of humiliating the translators!
Dan Lucas wrote:
Don't work with exploitative agencies.
Every time you say "yes" to them you empower them.
It really is that simple.
And yet a significant subset of the freelancer community clearly believes otherwise, or at least acts otherwise.
Regards,
Dan
[Edited at 2025-02-13 09:42 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 03:43
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
| I don't take it as a personal affront | Feb 14 |
Burcu Erdogan wrote:
This is true, but I wonder the cases in which you'd return with a perfect refusal to the client.
Refusals to work with potential clients happen all the time. I perform free trials for agencies that, in my judgment, are serious, but I start by explaining the rate I charge upfront, and I require agreement before I go any further. Most of them do not proceed past that point because they consider me too expensive, and because (thus far, at least) I have not been inclined to negotiate.
I do not do trials for agencies that appear to be bottom-feeders, or that do not have projects ready to go, or that are just looking to bolster their database of freelancers. Signing up with an agency is a cost, and I want to reduce my costs to the lowest possible level.
As for existing clients, some pay bank charges, one or two do not. However, I do not work with any client who does not offer me EITHER occasional large projects OR a steady stream of smaller projects (and preferably both). If one or the other of those two conditions are met, the bank charges for a month of work will not be a sticking point.
Also, only this morning I saw a job post on Proz from a company called Flipper; they are paying something like 35 USD for 50,000 "Flipper Points". I really don't know how these companies can come up with ways of humiliating the translators!
Did you personally accept that offer? If not, I don't understand why you are getting so excited about it. I think it is, in business terms, a ridiculous offer and therefore I would not accept it. However, if some foolish translator wishes to accept such an offer then I don't consider it to be a humiliation for the profession of which I am nominally a member.
The reality is that there are thousands of sub-markets within translation. Some are extremely price-sensitive and quality insensitive, and for some sub-markets the situation is reversed. Obviously there are fewer of the latter than the former, because the quality end of any market only makes up a small portion of the total.
Like I said, people are doing this to themselves by accepting rates that are too low instead of engaging in other work. In most cases, people (I am speaking of those without disabilities) living in developed countries who accept bottom-feeder rates could literally earn a better hourly wage working at their local fast food outlet. I don't understand why they don't do that. Pride, lack of business sense, laziness, introversion...? Who knows.
Regards,
Dan
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Burcu Erdogan
Турция
Local time: 05:43
Член ProZ.com c 2012
английский => турецкий
+ ...
Автор темы | Very good insights... | Feb 14 |
You seem to have a good position so as not to open the door for negotiations...
And really thank you for your reply. It is always good to know about others' attitudes toward agencies.
As for me getting too excited about that Flipper issue; I would never want to work for them, but you are right in pointing out my over-excitement. I think I feel more and more frustrated these days with such absurdities and also get angry easily with Proz for listing such ridiculous posts... Anyway, I ... See more You seem to have a good position so as not to open the door for negotiations...
And really thank you for your reply. It is always good to know about others' attitudes toward agencies.
As for me getting too excited about that Flipper issue; I would never want to work for them, but you are right in pointing out my over-excitement. I think I feel more and more frustrated these days with such absurdities and also get angry easily with Proz for listing such ridiculous posts... Anyway, I should relax, I think!
Regards,
Burcu
Dan Lucas wrote:
Burcu Erdogan wrote:
This is true, but I wonder the cases in which you'd return with a perfect refusal to the client.
Refusals to work with potential clients happen all the time. I perform free trials for agencies that, in my judgment, are serious, but I start by explaining the rate I charge upfront, and I require agreement before I go any further. Most of them do not proceed past that point because they consider me too expensive, and because (thus far, at least) I have not been inclined to negotiate.
I do not do trials for agencies that appear to be bottom-feeders, or that do not have projects ready to go, or that are just looking to bolster their database of freelancers. Signing up with an agency is a cost, and I want to reduce my costs to the lowest possible level.
As for existing clients, some pay bank charges, one or two do not. However, I do not work with any client who does not offer me EITHER occasional large projects OR a steady stream of smaller projects (and preferably both). If one or the other of those two conditions are met, the bank charges for a month of work will not be a sticking point.
Also, only this morning I saw a job post on Proz from a company called Flipper; they are paying something like 35 USD for 50,000 "Flipper Points". I really don't know how these companies can come up with ways of humiliating the translators!
Did you personally accept that offer? If not, I don't understand why you are getting so excited about it. I think it is, in business terms, a ridiculous offer and therefore I would not accept it. However, if some foolish translator wishes to accept such an offer then I don't consider it to be a humiliation for the profession of which I am nominally a member.
The reality is that there are thousands of sub-markets within translation. Some are extremely price-sensitive and quality insensitive, and for some sub-markets the situation is reversed. Obviously there are fewer of the latter than the former, because the quality end of any market only makes up a small portion of the total.
Like I said, people are doing this to themselves by accepting rates that are too low instead of engaging in other work. In most cases, people (I am speaking of those without disabilities) living in developed countries who accept bottom-feeder rates could literally earn a better hourly wage working at their local fast food outlet. I don't understand why they don't do that. Pride, lack of business sense, laziness, introversion...? Who knows.
Regards,
Dan
▲ Collapse
| | | | Daryo
Великобритания
Local time: 03:43
сербский => английский
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote:
Burcu Erdogan wrote:
This is true, but I wonder the cases in which you'd return with a perfect refusal to the client.
Refusals to work with potential clients happen all the time. I perform free trials for agencies that, in my judgment, are serious, but I start by explaining the rate I charge upfront, and I require agreement before I go any further. Most of them do not proceed past that point because they consider me too expensive, and because (thus far, at least) I have not been inclined to negotiate.
I do not do trials for agencies that appear to be bottom-feeders, or that do not have projects ready to go, or that are just looking to bolster their database of freelancers. Signing up with an agency is a cost, and I want to reduce my costs to the lowest possible level.
As for existing clients, some pay bank charges, one or two do not. However, I do not work with any client who does not offer me EITHER occasional large projects OR a steady stream of smaller projects (and preferably both). If one or the other of those two conditions are met, the bank charges for a month of work will not be a sticking point.
Also, only this morning I saw a job post on Proz from a company called Flipper; they are paying something like 35 USD for 50,000 "Flipper Points". I really don't know how these companies can come up with ways of humiliating the translators!
Did you personally accept that offer? If not, I don't understand why you are getting so excited about it. I think it is, in business terms, a ridiculous offer and therefore I would not accept it. However, if some foolish translator wishes to accept such an offer then I don't consider it to be a humiliation for the profession of which I am nominally a member.
The reality is that there are thousands of sub-markets within translation. Some are extremely price-sensitive and quality insensitive, and for some sub-markets the situation is reversed. Obviously there are fewer of the latter than the former, because the quality end of any market only makes up a small portion of the total.
Like I said, people are doing this to themselves by accepting rates that are too low instead of engaging in other work. In most cases, people (I am speaking of those without disabilities) living in developed countries who accept bottom-feeder rates could literally earn a better hourly wage working at their local fast food outlet. I don't understand why they don't do that. Pride, lack of business sense, laziness, introversion...? Who knows.
Regards,
Dan
"In most cases, people (I am speaking of those without disabilities) living in developed countries who accept bottom-feeder rates could literally earn a better hourly wage working at their local fast food outlet."
'Working at your local fast food outlet' is far from being the only alternative. There are many jobs (decently paid, some very well paid) that require the knowledge of two languages – it’s only a question of 'if you start looking wou’ll find them'.
| | | | Angie Garbarino
Local time: 04:43
Член ProZ.com c 2003
французский => итальянский
+ ...
[Edited at 2025-02-14 17:06 GMT]
| | | | expressisverbis
Португалия
Local time: 03:43
Член ProZ.com c 2015
английский => португальский
+ ...
AI is a convenient excuse for rate cuts, but the real problem is how the industry treats professional translation: as a low-cost service rather than a highly skilled profession.
It’s frustrating because AI could be a helpful tool, but instead, it's being used as a justification to devalue skilled professionals and cutting rates.
Right now, agencies set the rules, and since there's no industry-wide enforcement of fair wages or quality standards, it's a race to the bottom.
The... See more AI is a convenient excuse for rate cuts, but the real problem is how the industry treats professional translation: as a low-cost service rather than a highly skilled profession.
It’s frustrating because AI could be a helpful tool, but instead, it's being used as a justification to devalue skilled professionals and cutting rates.
Right now, agencies set the rules, and since there's no industry-wide enforcement of fair wages or quality standards, it's a race to the bottom.
The result: many people with no formal education and/or experience in translation enter the field and accept ridiculously low rates just to get work. They deliver poor-quality translations, and since agencies focus on cheap labor, they keep contacting them.
This lowers the overall market standard and makes clients think that translation should be cheap and fast.
I've always been of the opinion that if translators had a strong and global regulatory body or a union, like doctors, engineers or lawyers, things could be very different.
Some professional organizations like ATA (American Translators Association), ITI (UK), SFT (France), and APTRAD (Portugal) try to help, but without a true global union, certain agencies and clients just ignore standards and go for the cheapest option.
We should have a "grid" with rates enforced globally per language, a certification system that actually matters (so unqualified people couldn’t flood the market), legal protection against exploitation by agencies, and clients' awareness/education about our real value, the value of professional translation.
Lately, this is my ongoing battle: educating clients for the dangers of using AI or any other tool the way they are using it, and keeping in mind that translation is a skilled profession like any other and should be respected.
I think that by doing this, the more we push back and educate them, the more we protect the profession.
[Edited at 2025-02-14 18:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Burcu Erdogan
Турция
Local time: 05:43
Член ProZ.com c 2012
английский => турецкий
+ ...
Автор темы | I can't agree more! | Feb 14 |
I know we should have taken the necessary steps much before, but I am not sure whether now it is too late or not... Also whether it is something that can be done or not... But at least fighting our individual battles in our work is better than nothing for now.
expressisverbis wrote:
AI is a convenient excuse for rate cuts, but the real problem is how the industry treats professional translation: as a low-cost service rather than a highly skilled profession.
It’s frustrating because AI could be a helpful tool, but instead, it's being used as a justification to devalue skilled professionals and cutting rates.
Right now, agencies set the rules, and since there's no industry-wide enforcement of fair wages or quality standards, it's a race to the bottom.
The result: many people with no formal education and/or experience in translation enter the field and accept ridiculously low rates just to get work. They deliver poor-quality translations, and since agencies focus on cheap labor, they keep contacting them.
This lowers the overall market standard and makes clients think that translation should be cheap and fast.
I've always been of the opinion that if translators had a strong and global regulatory body or a union, like doctors, engineers or lawyers, things could be very different.
Some professional organizations like ATA (American Translators Association), ITI (UK), SFT (France), and APTRAD (Portugal) try to help, but without a true global union, certain agencies and clients just ignore standards and go for the cheapest option.
We should have a "grid" with rates enforced globally per language, a certification system that actually matters (so unqualified people couldn’t flood the market), legal protection against exploitation by agencies, and clients' awareness/education about our real value, the value of professional translation.
Lately, this is my ongoing battle: educating clients for the dangers of using AI or any other tool the way they are using it, and keeping in mind that translation is a skilled profession like any other and should be respected.
I think that by doing this, the more we push back and educate them, the more we protect the profession.
[Edited at 2025-02-14 18:02 GMT]
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Burcu Erdogan wrote:
Also, only this morning I saw a job post on Proz from a company called Flipper; they are paying something like 35 USD for 50,000 "Flipper Points". I really don't know how these companies can come up with ways of humiliating the translators!
What I really don't know is how a job post like that appears here, and it's approved by Proz staff.
Then, it's no surprise that scammers use TM-Town as their hunting field, but it's sad.
| | | | | Professional degree | Feb 14 |
expressisverbis wrote:
AI is a convenient excuse for rate cuts, but the real problem is how the industry treats professional translation: as a low-cost service rather than a highly skilled profession.
It’s frustrating because AI could be a helpful tool, but instead, it's being used as a justification to devalue skilled professionals and cutting rates.
Right now, agencies set the rules, and since there's no industry-wide enforcement of fair wages or quality standards, it's a race to the bottom.
The result: many people with no formal education and/or experience in translation enter the field and accept ridiculously low rates just to get work. They deliver poor-quality translations, and since agencies focus on cheap labor, they keep contacting them.
This lowers the overall market standard and makes clients think that translation should be cheap and fast.
I've always been of the opinion that if translators had a strong and global regulatory body or a union, like doctors, engineers or lawyers, things could be very different.
Some professional organizations like ATA (American Translators Association), ITI (UK), SFT (France), and APTRAD (Portugal) try to help, but without a true global union, certain agencies and clients just ignore standards and go for the cheapest option.
We should have a "grid" with rates enforced globally per language, a certification system that actually matters (so unqualified people couldn’t flood the market), legal protection against exploitation by agencies, and clients' awareness/education about our real value, the value of professional translation.
Lately, this is my ongoing battle: educating clients for the dangers of using AI or any other tool the way they are using it, and keeping in mind that translation is a skilled profession like any other and should be respected.
I think that by doing this, the more we push back and educate them, the more we protect the profession.
[Edited at 2025-02-14 18:02 GMT]
I agree, the idea that “if you're bilingual then you can translate” is older than AI, and it's known by everybody on and off the industry. And, many times, agencies promote this since it's beneficial for them.
Sadly, in this industry there are too many “working for pennies” offers, so, over time, I made my own banned list of agencies.
I usually reject low rates jobs by telling politely to the PM that I spent many years studying to get my translation degree, the same as doctors do. I know the value of the knowledge I acquired during all those years, and I also know the ethical commitment this profession bears, so I can't betray that.
Yes, I chose to compare myself with a doctor instead of a plumber because I have a university degree. My professional translation knowledge and expertise goes far beyond than “being bilingual.”
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