| Страниц в теме: < [1 2] | Client dispute in Switzerland Автор темы: Dan Lucas
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Zea_Mays 
Италия
Local time: 18:27
английский => немецкий
+ ...
From what I understand, quality-related they just wanted a translation "so that the client could understand what the text said". You delivered a standard-quality translation for your regular rate instead, and it seems they did their _duly_ but(!) machine-powered proofreading = faulty four-eyes principle. This is the weak point.
It seems they don't speak Japanese so they can't really assess the quality of the translation, only a specialised third party can do it - are they willing to pay so... See more From what I understand, quality-related they just wanted a translation "so that the client could understand what the text said". You delivered a standard-quality translation for your regular rate instead, and it seems they did their _duly_ but(!) machine-powered proofreading = faulty four-eyes principle. This is the weak point.
It seems they don't speak Japanese so they can't really assess the quality of the translation, only a specialised third party can do it - are they willing to pay someone for doing this?
Statistically speaking, the longer the translation the more little and big mistakes it has (in a good translation rather typos and the like). So having some errors in there is no reason to lower the rate, even if there were bigger ones and they have been fixed. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
Автор темы | Entirely qualitative rather than quantitative | Oct 9 |
Zea_Mays wrote:
Statistically speaking, the longer the translation the more little and big mistakes it has (in a good translation rather typos and the like). So having some errors in there is no reason to lower the rate, even if there were bigger ones and they have been fixed.
Agreed.
I would have had no objection if she had come out and said "Look, this is the standard that we used to assess translations, these are the 5 different types of error categories that we use, here is how we weight them, and our standard approach is to insist on less than 2% of errors on a word count basis." (Those numbers are made-up, by the way.)
If she had explained this before I took on the job, it would have given me confidence that there is an objective benchmark against which I would be measured, and allowed me to make a decision as to whether or not to accept the job. If I did accept the job in full knowledge of that benchmark, and my performance fell below that benchmark then I would jolly well revise it as required - that is only fair. (Actually, I always accept revision work, however trivial the points raised by the client.)
Instead the approach of this client is utterly subjective, as far as I can see. This means that I am - in theory - at her mercy. She wants to be judge, jury, and executioner. I don't think that is acceptable. I don't think insisting that a single error of any kind is grounds for penalties is acceptable. [EDIT: You may think that I'm exaggerating here, but she literally stated that only "perfect quality" is acceptable, and "perfect" by definition means not even a single flaw.]
To return to one of your points, if she had been genuinely interested in quality then she could have got a qualified third party to check the translation, which is what my regular clients always do (and they come back and give me more orders). Naturally such a process costs more, so this client did not.
Regards,
Dan
[Edited at 2024-10-09 13:20 GMT]
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We are human beings and therefore imperfect. And a perfect translation doesn't exist. I have never seen one.
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If I were in your shoes and as you said that «Money is always useful but this is more of a matter of principle», I would ask a third party to check the translation and write a small report. Then, I would send the invoice for the total sum together with the report. Anyway, good luck!
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Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
Автор темы
Thank you for the suggestion Maria. I can see where you're coming from.
So far the person to whom I have been speaking is refusing even to respond to my existing points, chief among which is that nearly all the issues she has raised (voice recognition "typos" aside) are demonstrably incorrect. Because she is dealing only with the English that is in front of her rather than the source, the number of comments she has been able to make has naturally been small. This has limited the sca... See more Thank you for the suggestion Maria. I can see where you're coming from.
So far the person to whom I have been speaking is refusing even to respond to my existing points, chief among which is that nearly all the issues she has raised (voice recognition "typos" aside) are demonstrably incorrect. Because she is dealing only with the English that is in front of her rather than the source, the number of comments she has been able to make has naturally been small. This has limited the scale, if you like, of the conflict.
I am concerned that providing a check by a third party would open up yet another front in this dispute, because depending on the person doing the checking I could end up with a lot of issues where the checker disagrees with me on various subjective points.
I would then have to argue those out by referring to precedent and pointing out various examples of such translation choices in the wild. While I am confident that I would be able to do that, it could easily turn into hours of work for me. In addition, such a service would be expensive and the client would probably object vociferously to being forced to pay for it without prior approval.
(In passing I should point out that I have no issue with people checking my work. My regular Japanese clients look at all my translations as a matter of course, using native Japanese speakers with an excellent command of English. I am very used to having my work checked carefully and to implementing revisions when requested.)
Anyway. I haven't heard from the client for 24 hours.
I expect I shall receive something from them tomorrow.
I think they basically have three options.
1) A rejection of the translation, along with a refusal to pay, accompanied by a veiled threat or two intended to discourage me from taking action against them. This is their "nuclear" option. I would certainly take action of one kind or another against them.
2) A repeat of the previous argument that the quality is inadequate, again with no reference to quantitative criteria or benchmarks, and a demand for a a specific discount figure, e.g. 30%. This will probably be accompanied by various references to the costs they have incurred, none of which will actually be substantiated or documented. This is their "hold the line" option. I would not accept this unless they can come up with a very convincing argument rather than the unsupported assertions they have aimed at me thus far.
3) A return to the previous position of paying the full invoice to which they originally agreed - effectively rowing back from their most recent stance. This is their "compromise" option. I would accept this, but not work with them again (not that I think I would get the chance).
I am betting they will go for 2). If I don't hear from them tomorrow then I will conclude that they have had enough time and send them the invoice. That would get the matter out of my hair for now so that I can return my focus to my paying clients.
Regards,
Dan ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
Автор темы
The person from the agency contacted me this afternoon. She reiterated the agency's opinion that the document was unacceptable, stated that they had no wish to explain themselves to me further [to be blunt, the core problem was that they made a bunch of assertions without explaining themselves at all] but said that they would pay the invoice.
I think that is a sensible decision on their part and I am naturally relieved that I will not be forced to take further steps. Let's ho... See more The person from the agency contacted me this afternoon. She reiterated the agency's opinion that the document was unacceptable, stated that they had no wish to explain themselves to me further [to be blunt, the core problem was that they made a bunch of assertions without explaining themselves at all] but said that they would pay the invoice.
I think that is a sensible decision on their part and I am naturally relieved that I will not be forced to take further steps. Let's hope that the payment goes smoothly.
On the other hand, even this final message reveals their belief that they have the unilateral right to impose arbitrary rules without reference to some kind of independent criteria.
Unsurprisingly, I disagree.
The efficient conduct of business between different parties requires mutual trust. If freelancers are to trust agencies, they must have confidence that the process of evaluation by agencies will be transparent, objective, and consistent. That clearly is not the case with this agency, as shown by their inability to quantify any aspect of their assessment.
Anyway. It looks as if the matter has been resolved, and we can move on.
I am still slightly mystified by the whole episode, and I will not be working with them again.
My takeaway is that with any new clients I should always ask them what (if any) quality standards they apply.
Thanks to everybody for their help and support.
I will update you if and when the payment arrives.
Regards,
Dan ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Excellent news, mainly | Oct 10 |
Good news, but strange and unacceptable behaviour. I hope I won't run into them in my combinations. Do please update Payment Practices to warn others – once you've secured your dosh.
Dan Lucas wrote:
Thanks to everybody for their help and support.
I will update you if and when the payment arrives.
We look forward to that. Kindly forward your billing details for our respective 25% commissions for legal advice🤣🤣🤣🤣
| | | | Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
Автор темы
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
We look forward to that. Kindly forward your billing details for our respective 25% commissions for legal advice🤣🤣🤣🤣
Right, so that's 25% for you, 25% for Charlie, 25% for TargamaT, 25% for ibz, and - oh.
Dammit.
Dan
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Denis Danchenko
Украина
Local time: 19:27
Член ProZ.com c 2012
английский => русский
+ ...
| Standards as monkey's grenades | Oct 11 |
My takeaway is that with any new clients I should always ask them what (if any) quality standards they apply.
Just 'failed' a test for a promising U.S. lead. The test piece came from my space (automotive) and the 'quality standard' they put me up against was my 'native' (by now) SAE j 2450.
They messed up the error categories completely, showed total lack of domain expertise and produced so much linguistic 'noise' as their feedback that I refused to invest another couple of hours into 'rebuttal' and muted the thread.
My takeaway: no more paid/unpaid tests for me against whatever standards getting thrown in.
| | | | Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
Автор темы
Denis Danchenko wrote:
They messed up the error categories completely, showed total lack of domain expertise and produced so much linguistic 'noise' as their feedback that I refused to invest another couple of hours into 'rebuttal' and muted the thread.
...a lucky escape.
Dan
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It's a Swedish, I believe, debt collection company, and they've partners in countries they offer services in.
https://shorturl.at/eeNUl
You invoice the full amount agreed upon before they proceeded to try to scam you out of your money with bogus claims. Once you aren't paid on time, wait another week, send a reminder and, after that, just upload the invoice to the Oddcoll for Switzerla... See more It's a Swedish, I believe, debt collection company, and they've partners in countries they offer services in.
https://shorturl.at/eeNUl
You invoice the full amount agreed upon before they proceeded to try to scam you out of your money with bogus claims. Once you aren't paid on time, wait another week, send a reminder and, after that, just upload the invoice to the Oddcoll for Switzerland site, and they'll take care of it.
In fact, since not a single person from the agency showed any good faith, perhaps you might even contact the debt collectors immediately upon invoicing. These people trying to stiff you, have probably done this before, where they can. So, perhaps, a call from a Swiss solicitor who's partnered up with Oddcoll.com will make them waive the payment terms rights and pay up. In this way, they keep a low profile and can proceed to scam other talent that's less likely to put up a fight.
Once you get your money, please make a BB review, for any potential collaborator's sake.
[Edited at 2024-10-16 07:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2014
японский => английский
Автор темы
Korana Lasić wrote:
It's a Swedish, I believe, debt collection company, and they've partners in countries they offer services in.
https://shorturl.at/eeNUl
Thank you, I hope I won't need to use it but it's good to have the option.
I honestly do not know whether the agency uses these tactics frequently or not.
Feedback on BB is limited but positive. On the other hand, there was another comment on paymentpractices.net to the effect that the respondent seldom works with them because rates are low. So maybe they object to paying what they perceived to be high rates to freelancers.
That does not excuse their representative's comment to the effect that they are hardly making any money on the transaction because, to paraphrase, I'm charging them too much. Well, that's their problem; they need to learn how to price jobs properly and reject those that are not economically viable.
They're welcome to try and find somebody else in my pair to take on similarly demanding projects in future.
All very disappointing. It is the first time I've had this kind of problem with a client.
Regards,
Dan
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| Oh, OK! My mistake! | Oct 16 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
Korana Lasić wrote:
It's a Swedish, I believe, debt collection company, and they've partners in countries they offer services in.
https://shorturl.at/eeNUl
Thank you, I hope I won't need to use it but it's good to have the option.
I honestly do not know whether the agency uses these tactics frequently or not.
Feedback on BB is limited but positive. On the other hand, there was another comment on paymentpractices.net to the effect that the respondent seldom works with them because rates are low. So maybe they object to paying what they perceived to be high rates to freelancers.
That does not excuse their representative's comment to the effect that they are hardly making any money on the transaction because, to paraphrase, I'm charging them too much. Well, that's their problem; they need to learn how to price jobs properly and reject those that are not economically viable.
They're welcome to try and find somebody else in my pair to take on similarly demanding projects in future.
All very disappointing. It is the first time I've had this kind of problem with a client.
Regards,
Dan
I've somehow missed the post where you had explained they've decided to pay the agreed upon amount! That's good news.
| | | | AllegroTrans
Великобритания
Local time: 17:27
Член ProZ.com c 2011
французский => английский
+ ...
There is an online, and comparatively cheap, method of issuing a payment demand (commandement de payer) in Switzerland. If not disputed within a set time limit, it becomes equivalent to a court judgment. I once threatened one of these and the agency paid up.
See:
Poursuite : commandement de payer, opposition, saisie
ch.ch
https://www.ch.ch › poursuites
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Translate t... See more There is an online, and comparatively cheap, method of issuing a payment demand (commandement de payer) in Switzerland. If not disputed within a set time limit, it becomes equivalent to a court judgment. I once threatened one of these and the agency paid up.
See:
Poursuite : commandement de payer, opposition, saisie
ch.ch
https://www.ch.ch › poursuites
·
Translate this page
Créancier ou débiteur, vous trouverez ici toutes les infos sur les commandements de payer, la procédure d'opposition et la réquisition de poursuite. ▲ Collapse
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