| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict Автор темы: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ
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Zoran Poposki (X)
Local time: 11:48
английский => македонский
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| Dimitra Karamperi 
Греция
Local time: 12:48
английский => греческий (новогреческий)
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| We should look at the bright side... | Sep 6, 2007 |
If a Greek dialect called Macedonian exists and if there are Proz.com users who would like to have a forum in that dialect, Proz.com could open a subforum within the Greek forum where users can discuss in that dialect.
Dear Aleksandra,
There is no such thing as a "Macedonian dialect". Greek is spoken throughout Greece, Macedonia included.
Also I believe that you should not publish a link that contains ambiguous political content.
Dear all,
I think that we are not going to end somewhere with this discussion. Maybe we were too naive from the beginning to believe that we could do better than that.
Gabriella is right. We are all humans with the same flesh, with the same problems, needs, concerns etc.
We, as linguists, come into contact with people from all kinds of cultures and so we were supposed to be more tolerate against other peoples. Apparently this does not apply when it comes to all that we consider "sacred".
The case here is that we, people of FYROM and people of Greece, are paying the faults of our politicians. But we should not let these politicians rule this world that is called "ProZ.com". Let's not play their game.
Dear Sherefedin, I don't think that you should refrain from this community for the reason you stated. I must admit that I also thought of making a similar statement but then I realized that this would not lead anywhere.
We are all part of this community, in fact we make this site a community.
I really have nothing else to propose regarding the name of the forum. Perhaps a voting? I don't know how many are we or you and I don't even know if this would be viable.
To end, we should look at the bright side: if we manage to solve this, the UN will probably give us to solve the Palestinian matter
[Edited at 2007-09-06 18:40]
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| Is this true? | Sep 6, 2007 |
Dimitra Karamperi wrote:
There is no such thing as a "Macedonian dialect". Greek is spoken throughout Greece, Macedonia included.
Dimitra, if this is true, then using the word "Macedonian" for the language of the Republic of Macedonia would not create any confusion as to which language is being referred to.
Using only "Macedonian" for the Slavic language may be politically distasteful to people from Greece, but it does not create any linguistic confusion - unless you are wrong in this statement.
I am an outsider with no stake in either camp. But I wonder whether a solution along the following lines may be possible:
1. There is only one LANGUAGE which calls itself Macedonian. Why not let it call itself that (in view of your statement, I do not see any LINGUISTIC reason not to do so).
2. We recognise that there are regions in Greece that claim the name Macedonian for their ethinic identity. Both the Macedonians in Greece and the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia have the right to use the term Macedonia/Macedonian to describe their locality and their ethnic identity.
3. Where there is confusion because one word is used with two meanings, a disambiguation is useful for outsiders (i.e. Macedonians in Greece and Macedonians in the Republic).
4. Used as a language name, it seems that "Macedonian" does not need this disambiguation. (Or was your statement wrong?)
5. It seems that the term "Slavic" as a descriptor is not historically as easy as it might seem, because the Slavic background of the language seems to be a remote academic consideration which does not have any identity value in the local culture of today.
If the term Macedonian is used in Greece FOR A LANGUAGE, this approach would need to be reconsidered. So perhaps those who speak Greek (especially those who come from Macedonia) coud enlighten us on how they describe the regional language.
[Edited at 2007-09-06 19:07]
| | | | Dimitra Karamperi
Греция
Local time: 12:48
английский => греческий (новогреческий)
+ ...
| Of course it is true... | Sep 6, 2007 |
Victor Dewsbery wrote:
Dimitra Karamperi wrote:
There is no such thing as a "Macedonian dialect". Greek is spoken throughout Greece, Macedonia included.
Dimitra, if this is true, then using the word "Macedonian" for the language of the Republic of Macedonia would not create any confusion as to which language is being referred to.
Using only "Macedonian" for the Slavic language may be politically distasteful to people from Greece, but it does not create any linguistic confusion - unless you are wrong in this statement.
I am an outsider with no stake in either camp. But I wonder whether a solution along the following lines may be possible:
1. There is only one LANGUAGE which calls itself Macedonian. Why not let it call itself that (in view of your statement, I do not see any LINGUISTIC reason not to do so).
2. We recognise that there are regions in Greece that claim the name Macedonian for their ethinic identity. Both the Macedonians in Greece and the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia have the right to use the term Macedonia/Macedonian to describe their locality and their ethnic identity.
3. Where there is confusion because one word is used with two meanings, a disambiguation is useful for outsiders (i.e. Macedonians in Greece and Macedonians in the Republic).
4. Used as a language name, it seems that "Macedonian" does not need this disambiguation. (Or was your statement wrong?)
5. It seems that the term "Slavic" as a descriptor is not historically as easy as it might seem, because the Slavic background of the language seems to be a remote academic consideration which does not have any identity value in the local culture of today.
If the term Macedonian is used in Greece FOR A LANGUAGE, this approach would need to be reconsidered. So perhaps those who speak Greek (especially those who come from Macedonia) coud enlighten us on how they describe the regional language.
Dear Victor,
I live in Thessaloniki, the bigger city of the prefecture of Macedonia. Of course there is no such thing as a Macedonian dialect. We speak Greek, we are part of Greece, we are Greeks. There are no doubts concerning this.
But the problem is not that. The problem lies to the fact that there is a conflict when you write/say that you are from Macedonia but another new country states that its language is "Macedonian". To make myself clear purely in linguistic level, I have been offered via my profile jobs into "Macedonian".
Yes, apart from the national & political reasons, I do believe that there is a conflict here.
Kind regards,
Dimitra
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Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 11:48
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
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Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
As a matter of fact, when we write Macedonian in English, the Greek community think directly of Ancient Macedonian language, modern Macedonian dialect, and all related things to the Greek Macedonia.
When I say "Greek", do you think of ancient Greece or modern Greece? When I say "Hebrew", do you think of the modern state of Israel or the ancient state of Judea? When I say "English", do you think of people in England only, or to people in America and Australia too?
Language names aren't logical and it is unrealistic to expect to find a solution that will leave no misunderstanding.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 11:48
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
| Macedonian is nothing... wait until you do Afrikaans! | Sep 6, 2007 |
Dimitra Karamperi wrote:
To make myself clear purely in linguistic level, I have been offered via my profile jobs into "Macedonian".
And I regularly get job offers to translation into "African". Half of those clients want translation into Afrikaans, and half of them want translation into some other African language.
I also get offers for translation into "South African", and again, some of those people really mean "Afrikaans" and some of them mean "black language".
People will confuse languages and placenames -- live with it, I say.
| | | | | The two solutions I see | Sep 6, 2007 |
To whom it may concern -- that is to say all of us.
Please spare your time and mine from cleaning this forum. If you are not able to discuss linguistics without involving politics, (your) (hi)story, or personal attacks, then please don't discuss at all.
If you want to discuss etymology, I really love it and is one of my passions, but please open a new topic for it.
From what I can see is that both communities seem simply blinded and obsessed by exclusivenes... See more To whom it may concern -- that is to say all of us.
Please spare your time and mine from cleaning this forum. If you are not able to discuss linguistics without involving politics, (your) (hi)story, or personal attacks, then please don't discuss at all.
If you want to discuss etymology, I really love it and is one of my passions, but please open a new topic for it.
From what I can see is that both communities seem simply blinded and obsessed by exclusiveness of a simple name as its use was going to change the course of ones life or anything else. In 100 hundred years we'll all die and nobody will either remember us or care about the discussion we're having right now. So, in order to have a happy life without getting frustrated by futile things such as simple denominations or identity crisis, I have news for you -- we're on the same planet and inevitabely we are all related. So if you like talking history so much, then go even further than 2000 years. Go back 10 000 years. Or why not 100 000 years? How about even more? Where were (Slavic or Greek) Macedonians then? Building the Tower of Babel as sisters and brothers and dispatched afterwards? Maybe, who knows. Now, we stop talking history, because everyone will uses dates they like. Ones will talk ancient history, others modern history.
I also see that this discussion seems a dead-end and that we are getting off the track when we start etymology-related subjects. It involves history and maybe politics, especially when two communities do not agree on a term.
I have read arguments from ones and others. What I see is that the Greek community refuses that non Greek community monopolizes the term Macedonian, while the Macedonians from FYROM do not have another name to identify themselves and find it unfair not to be treated as equally as other language communities.
I can understand perfectly well both communities and I don't see any other solution but the two following:
(Already suggested solution) 1) Either we rename the title"Non-English forums" into "Non-English LANGUAGES forums" so that all the denominations are only and purely languages denominations. And as it seems that this solution does not please all I would suggest another one, but I do not know if this solution is going to be accepted, but better than the following solution I don't see:
2) In order to be treated equally, fairly, linguistically and to please all (I hope), I suggest to reorganize the "Non English Forums" by linguistical branches and not simply by alphabetical order of languages.
So when you click on "Non English forums" instead of having a classification sorted per language, have it sorted per linguistical branches.
We could have something like this:
"Non-English forums":
->"Semitic languages"
->->Arabic
->->Aramaic
->->Hebrew
...
->"Romance languages":
->->French
->->Italian
->->Portuguese
->->Romanian
->->Spanish
...
->"Slavic languages":
->->Bosnian
->->Bulgarian
->->Croatian
->->Czech
->->Macedonian
->->Polish
->->Russian
etc., etc.
Right now I honestly do not see any other solution.
Very best regards ▲ Collapse
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