| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | What do we consider a sustainable MTPE rate? Thread poster: Adieu
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| For me a sustainable rate...... | Mar 29, 2021 |
... for MTPE or any other 'proofing related job' for that matter is my hourly rate.
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 21:00
Italian to English
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| The problem will the the vlume of fees available | Mar 29, 2021 |
The danger is obviously that MT will reduce the volume of work available in terms of fees. Some of this will be offset by new/more end-customers attracted by low pricing, but I'd imagine only marginally. I hope I'm not right, but I imagine that within a couple of years the majority of job proposals will be for MTPE. If this does come about, it will drive quite a number of translators out of the market, since many are qualified to take more interesting and better-paid jobs in other sectors.
... See more The danger is obviously that MT will reduce the volume of work available in terms of fees. Some of this will be offset by new/more end-customers attracted by low pricing, but I'd imagine only marginally. I hope I'm not right, but I imagine that within a couple of years the majority of job proposals will be for MTPE. If this does come about, it will drive quite a number of translators out of the market, since many are qualified to take more interesting and better-paid jobs in other sectors.
My personal experience: Multiple agencies that had never asked me for this service before have contacted me in recent months for MTPE. Output-wise, MT used to be unreadable crap. Recently I've seen some surprisingly good output, but the quality varies wildly. I've only accepted a single of job in the area, mainly to test the water. The results were OK financially as I charged per hour. But I was aware that the job generated only a couple of hours' fees, whereas a year or two ago it would have provided the best part of a day's work.
[Edited at 2021-03-29 12:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What happens is in our hands (in some cases, at least) | Mar 29, 2021 |
Anthony, I see that you have edited out the following part of your post while I've been writing this, but I will respond to it anyway:
Anthony John Keily wrote:
MTPE is here to stay and will be more and more part of our lives.
It will to the extent that we translators collectively allow it to be. I choose to say no to it and have seen no decline in demand for my services. Those of us who can carve out a niche for ourselves in the market and defend it might stand a chance of surviving, that's why I have adopted my stance.
As for what you originally said about agencies feeling the heat from the competition, I am sceptical as to whether all, or even many, would pass on the cost saving (handed to them by us) to their clients. As the cost of living keeps on going up, we are being squeezed on two fronts: falling income and rising expenses.
Anthony John Keily wrote:
The danger is obviously that MT will compress the volume of work available in terms of fees. Some of this will be offset by new/more end-customers attracted by low pricing, but I'd imagine only marginally.
Where will these "more end customers" come from? To the extent that they are customers who are currently buying at the high end of the market, our income will fall further as clients who are currently paying us more will start paying us less. This will only make the problem I mentioned above (our being squeezed on two fronts) worse by dragging the whole market down, so I don't feel that this offset effect you mention will necessarily happen.
| | | | TTilch 
Local time: 21:00
English to German
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| a sustainable MTPE rate is to be paid by the actual hour spent | Jun 29, 2021 |
Hi all,
Simply do not offer any rates "by word" or "by character" at all - ever heard of a software programmer being paid by word? A hairdresser being paid by the number of hairs they cut? A mechanic by the number of parts they exchanged? Certainly not.
So when you receive offers like this:
"We offer USD 0.035/Word for human translation and USD 0.025/word for MTPE.
I understand that the rate is low but this is only exception for this project. Please ... See more Hi all,
Simply do not offer any rates "by word" or "by character" at all - ever heard of a software programmer being paid by word? A hairdresser being paid by the number of hairs they cut? A mechanic by the number of parts they exchanged? Certainly not.
So when you receive offers like this:
"We offer USD 0.035/Word for human translation and USD 0.025/word for MTPE.
I understand that the rate is low but this is only exception for this project. Please note that the MTPE quality is very good which will allow you to complete about 2500 words per hour."
you simply reply: "My rate is 75 USD per hour. If you send me the text in question, I can provide you with a quotation." That's it. They either take it or leave it - and the more translators just start to say "no thank you" to ridiculous offers, the less of these "offers" there are going to be around. All you have to do is use your heads/a little maths and look around you - you just charge at least the same amount per hour that you have to pay for services yourself. It's as simple as that.
Or do you really enjoy having to work 4-5 hours to be able to pay 1 hour motorcar mechanic or solicitor fees?!
Regards,
Tanja ▲ Collapse
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| AI will kill the job | Jul 8, 2021 |
Yes I agree with you all: you should ask for. 100% of the translator rate because you are selling out your future as a translator. Indeed, computers will always become faster at proceeding zillions of instructions. You should also prepare yourselves for your future in translation: editor of the mind machine productions. It will always need a talented editor.
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Adieu wrote:
I literally watch their system acquire new quirks and un-learn previously known correct answers overnight.
Any chance I could join you? I could bring popcorn.
| | | | | Technological changes: Nothing new under the sun | Jul 8, 2021 |
First warnings could have been heard in 1979 already:
https://youtu.be/W8r-tXRLazs
| | | | Claudio Porcellana (X)
Italy
Local time: 21:00
English to Italian
| What do we consider a sustainable MTPE rate? | Dec 8, 2021 |
I suspect that very few around have ever managed a MPTE task, because it's totally another kind of task, and depending of the output quality and the reviser's skills, it can be faster, or way faster then a normal translation
Some time ago I was hired by a big LP as MT Auditor, and my duty was ranking the output of their "patented customized MT"; well, I found then that the "patented customized MT" was just the old free GT (not the new neural) and the output was obviously a crap, but... See more I suspect that very few around have ever managed a MPTE task, because it's totally another kind of task, and depending of the output quality and the reviser's skills, it can be faster, or way faster then a normal translation
Some time ago I was hired by a big LP as MT Auditor, and my duty was ranking the output of their "patented customized MT"; well, I found then that the "patented customized MT" was just the old free GT (not the new neural) and the output was obviously a crap, but this is another story LOL
Now, Let me say that, even at the time were the neural MT was sci-fi, "with some context (so no 1-2 words sentences, or ambiguous/badly written short sentences) and with certain language couples", the output was not bad at all, as explained in this old article of mine below
But today, with neural/hybrid MTs, the matter changed totally, at the point that "with a context, so no 1-2 words sentences, no too much ambiguous/badly written short sentences where even humans often fail, and with many language couples" the output is good, absolutely in par with the "average translator"
This requires a couple of premise and alerts:
Premise 1: More-than-average translators are less common
Premise 2: The MT is fed by existing translations, and most existing translations are made by gazillions of average/less-than average translators
Alert 1: In the immediate future and beyond, sub-average and average translators will be swept away by MT
Alert 2: Final customers that are small-to-average companies (big companies like e.g. Microsoft moved to MT eons ago) are increasingly offering MT-translated texts to language providers that are forced, even if unwilling, to manage these tasks, so getting angry with peers that do MPTE is preposterous
All that said, and to reply to the OP, 70% of the normal revision rate for heavy MTPE is considered fair nowadays, in the EU at least, and I think it can be applied to the per word rate as well
P.S.: Clearly, finding a fair language provider is totally another story
[Edited at 2021-12-08 20:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| I respectfully disagree | Dec 9, 2021 |
Claudio Porcellana wrote:
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All that said, and to reply to the OP, 70% of the normal revision rate for heavy MTPE is considered fair nowadays, in the EU at least, and I think it can be applied to the per word rate as well
Claudio's analysis seems interesting and knowledgeable, but with all due respect, I think the rate suggestion (70% of the human revision rate, at most) is doing a disservice to fellow professional translators who will look for MTPE pricing inspiration in these forums.
70% of the human translation (per word) rate (on average, can be more, can be less, depending on the specifics) would be more like it.
Standard per hour rate would be even better.
I had objected to a similar suggestion by Claudio in the past, and I feel compelled to do so again.
https://www.proz.com/forum/machine_translation_mt/318856-rates_per_hour_for_mtpe.html
In page 2 of that same forum thread, I also make a case for eschewing MTPE altogether.
[Edited at 2021-12-09 07:40 GMT]
| | | | Claudio Porcellana (X)
Italy
Local time: 21:00
English to Italian
| free to disagree but... | Dec 13, 2021 |
Hi Jean , I missed your reply in the other 3D, sorry
Just a couple of considerations:
1 - you mention a niche example that is TAUS, while I mention the real world of the regular market
2 - the kind of "Full post-editing" you speak about is a total nonsense, because it kills one of the reasons why MT was developed, that is not making a human output
It sounds to me as a cheat by TAUS forcing translators to become hamsters in a wheel, so I agree w... See more Hi Jean , I missed your reply in the other 3D, sorry
Just a couple of considerations:
1 - you mention a niche example that is TAUS, while I mention the real world of the regular market
2 - the kind of "Full post-editing" you speak about is a total nonsense, because it kills one of the reasons why MT was developed, that is not making a human output
It sounds to me as a cheat by TAUS forcing translators to become hamsters in a wheel, so I agree with you that this service must be paid as a regular revision rate
But if you read my example, you'll understand that the "Heavy post-editing" I mentioned is a different beast
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P.S. just now I received an offer of that kind, and here is my reply
A couple of years ago I was hired by a big LP as MT Auditor, and my duty was ranking the output of their "patented customized MT"
Well, I found that their "patented customized MT" was just the old free GT (not the new neural one) and the output was obviously a crap
It seems to be another story, but I am not so sure it is, because companies cannot resist temptation to use the cheapest MT, not mentioning the crap that technicians usually produce in source papers
Now, as far as we all agree on the "level of quality" required by your customers we can collaborate
Below you see an article I posted on LinkedIn some time after my experience as MT Auditor: it mention 2 kinds of approach
For the "heavy editing" (my definition), 70% of the normal revision rate is a win-win approach to me, but I know that nowadays many companies require a MTPE that is indistinguishable from a regular TEP, and in this case 100% of the revision rate is the only win-win
[Edited at 2021-12-13 14:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | What 70% of revision rate | Dec 13, 2021 |
Y'all on drugs?
The rare *worst* case scenario of revision IS nearly-full MTPE due to slacker translator.
Normally, MTPE should be priced at 2 - 3x your revision rate.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| No accceptable rate | Dec 13, 2021 |
There is no acceptable rate for MTPE.
MTPE is what used to be called "working on the first very rough draft of a translation" before machine translation was invented.
It is usually the first step in a lengthy and demanding process of writing and rewriting, always referring back to the source text, in order to arrive at a faithful and accurate translation that is usable for publication or other important purposes such as uploading to a website.
Machine trans... See more There is no acceptable rate for MTPE.
MTPE is what used to be called "working on the first very rough draft of a translation" before machine translation was invented.
It is usually the first step in a lengthy and demanding process of writing and rewriting, always referring back to the source text, in order to arrive at a faithful and accurate translation that is usable for publication or other important purposes such as uploading to a website.
Machine translation, at best, will help you with the first 10% of the task; but the remaining 90% cannot be done by a machine. It requires brainwork and a level of literacy and linguistic creativity that even the best MTs, like Deepl, cannot do (no matter how close they seem to come, sometimes).
About an hour ago a client sent me a 200-word press release that I ran through CafeTran, also using Deepl to try out alternative ways of saying the same thing; but it then took me the best part of that hour to rephrase the translated text and polish it until it was ready to see the light of day.
MTPE is a scam. In my opinion no self-respecting, experienced translator would ever do it because they know the amount of work that's involved.
[Edited at 2021-12-13 16:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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AnnaSCHTR
United States
Local time: 14:00
English to Czech
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| There are different kinds of MTPE | Dec 18, 2021 |
Some large agencies use this term vaguely - they simply pre-translate the text using their own, accumulated translation memory, including imperfect matches. I rarely accept such projects but when I do, it is something small, and I charge 80% of my TRANSLATION rate. They can call it "post-edit" as much as they like - for me, working in one of the Slavic languages, this is simply translating with a benefit of less typing (and a drawback of possible, easy to overlook, errors).
The abov... See more Some large agencies use this term vaguely - they simply pre-translate the text using their own, accumulated translation memory, including imperfect matches. I rarely accept such projects but when I do, it is something small, and I charge 80% of my TRANSLATION rate. They can call it "post-edit" as much as they like - for me, working in one of the Slavic languages, this is simply translating with a benefit of less typing (and a drawback of possible, easy to overlook, errors).
The above-mentioned easy to overlook errors, like missing "not" (a potential lethal mistake in medical translations) or mismatched numbers, are the main reason why I hate doing this.
As for other types of MTPE, when a client uses a general machine translation from Google or DeepL - here I agree with Tom. This is a scam, plain and simple. The amount of work is the same, even larger, that with a regular translation, and no discount can be given. I would like to say that some reputable agencies do that (for reasons unknown to me) but they pay regular translation rate.
I understand that German translators might disagree with me, as MT seems to work best in the ENG-GER language pair. I am always surprised and somewhat saddened that no discussions about MT take into consideration differences between language groups. We have cases and declension in Slavic languages, and it makes it much, much harder to utilize any automatic processes. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Discount for MTPE jobs makes little sense | Apr 13, 2022 |
I’m sorry to revive such an old topic, but I feel there is something else to consider.
I feel like the discount for MTPE tasks, compared to regular translation tasks, is based on a single press of a button that I can do by myself. Tools like Google Translate and other, less known, are openly available. It’s surely slightly more comfortable to get a text that is already machine-pretranslated. But any translator can do it by themselves. The client offering a MTPE task is asking, e... See more I’m sorry to revive such an old topic, but I feel there is something else to consider.
I feel like the discount for MTPE tasks, compared to regular translation tasks, is based on a single press of a button that I can do by myself. Tools like Google Translate and other, less known, are openly available. It’s surely slightly more comfortable to get a text that is already machine-pretranslated. But any translator can do it by themselves. The client offering a MTPE task is asking, essentially, to cut the rate by maybe 30 or even 50% by a simple press of button in their CAT software.
One might argue that the situation with the regular CAT tools and translation memories is the same. But it really isn’t. Translation memories are not openly accessible. When a translation project contains a translation memory, it also contains the research and approved segments by previous translators and revisers. When a translator does their own work, based on the previous terminology research that the client trusts, the new translation will require less time for research and thus will be paid less.
In conclusion, the mere fact that an automated translation is being provided by a translation office is definitely not worth a 50%, or even a 30%, discount. They just pressed a button in their software and offering to pay less. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Davide Fezzardi
Italy
Local time: 21:01
Member (2016)
English to Italian
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| "translating from scratch was not significantly slower than post-editing", study reports | Apr 13, 2022 |
Following the last post to this thread, I would like to point out an interesting study on post-editing that in my opinion deserves to be shared.
A few months ago, Charles University (Czech Republic) published a report on post-editing titled "Neural Machine Translation Quality and Post-Editing Performance" available at bit.ly/3NEhqPK. As regards the possible increase of work efficiency by using machine translation, it includes a note, in page no. 9, reading:
"Contrary to current ... See more Following the last post to this thread, I would like to point out an interesting study on post-editing that in my opinion deserves to be shared.
A few months ago, Charles University (Czech Republic) published a report on post-editing titled "Neural Machine Translation Quality and Post-Editing Performance" available at bit.ly/3NEhqPK. As regards the possible increase of work efficiency by using machine translation, it includes a note, in page no. 9, reading:
"Contrary to current results, translating from scratch was not significantly slower than post-editing in either of the two phases."
[Edited at 2022-04-13 15:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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