Oct 1, 2021 15:38
2 yrs ago
34 viewers *
French term
United States
Laudable Lady Linguist
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 3 more.
un choix délicatement accordé à sa défaite
French to English
Art/Literary
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
From An Art History Book
Contexte :
Ces dernières archives furent remises par le baron lui-même aux autorités américaines avant qu’il ne se suicidât avec sa femme. Son
ultime geste de dandy fut de boire le poison dans du champagne au millésime de 1918 ! Un choix délicatement accordé à sa défaite… Quel dommage que l’activité de von Behr ne s’en soit pas tenue au symbole !
Merci Beaucoup,
Barbara
Ces dernières archives furent remises par le baron lui-même aux autorités américaines avant qu’il ne se suicidât avec sa femme. Son
ultime geste de dandy fut de boire le poison dans du champagne au millésime de 1918 ! Un choix délicatement accordé à sa défaite… Quel dommage que l’activité de von Behr ne s’en soit pas tenue au symbole !
Merci Beaucoup,
Barbara
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+2
2 hrs
Heather Langdale
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Works in field
United Kingdom
International development specialist
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, Portuguese to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
a rather fitting way to go
It appears that von Behr was quite an over-the-top person, so I understand it was a reference to that. For something a bit more literary, how about "as theatrical in death as he was in life"?
Note from asker:
| Thanks. Interesting possibilities. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
SafeTex
: I changed from agree to neutral as I now think that people might be right to insist on the wine and its year. But I still think this was a very good first attempt, which is sometimes the hardest to make as you have little to go on from other translators
2 hrs
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| neutral |
Daryo
: you completely ignored the point made by the author. If you look at related questions (and even this one) you can see that this whole book is written in sarcastic / mocking tones - you turned that into plain moralising.
10 hrs
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| agree |
Nick Pell
: I love it!
13 hrs
|
| neutral |
philgoddard
: It does seem a shame to stray so far from the clever French idea.
13 hrs
|
| neutral |
Emmanuella
: Joli mais pas du tout le sens escompté
14 hrs
|
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: This fits the "story" and the text is a book rather than a legal document; some poetic licence is permissible
5 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
12 hrs
a choice (of vintage year) finely matched to his defeat
it's a parody on rules about which wine should be matched with which dish:
red meat to be matched with red wine
white fish to be matched / paired with white wine
etc (oversimplified just as example)
HERE for the "celebration of the defeat" the vintage year of the poisoned champagne was matched by Kurt von Behr with the year of another defeat in a another World War.
As Emmanuella already pointed it out, 1918 was the year when Germany lost the First World War.
red meat to be matched with red wine
white fish to be matched / paired with white wine
etc (oversimplified just as example)
HERE for the "celebration of the defeat" the vintage year of the poisoned champagne was matched by Kurt von Behr with the year of another defeat in a another World War.
As Emmanuella already pointed it out, 1918 was the year when Germany lost the First World War.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: You make a valid point, the idea is 'pairing', but I don't think people will understand 'finely matched to his defeat'.
3 hrs
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I did check - "to match" is also used a lot // this whole book is very far being "easy to understand" the only audience who will really appreciate it is not the one you need to do "simple writing" for - nothing can be done about that!
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: "finely matched" somehow seems contrived and unnatural
11 hrs
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Well, the style of the original is not your run-of-mill chitchat either?
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| disagree |
SafeTex
: The others are being kind. The words are English but once again the suggestion is shouting "non-native speaker of English" !!!
3 days 9 hrs
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Yeah, sure ... / "The last refuge of ..." sound "native" enough to you?
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+1
21 hrs
a choice of year that uncannily marked his downfall
I've already given an agree but I understand that some may think that Heather's translation is missing a vital part.
So here is my attempt, in part based on Adrian's use of "downfall" to give a fuller translation
So here is my attempt, in part based on Adrian's use of "downfall" to give a fuller translation
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Emmanuella
: Uncannily, non! The choice was intentional, i.e, to celebrate the defeat of the Germans in 1918 and his own defeat. Thanks for your consideration.
50 mins
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Hello. I'm not sure. I took it to be that the choice was not intentional.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
4 days
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Thanks AllegroTrans
|
+1
22 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, British)
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
12
a choice of date fine-tuned to his downfall > closely aligned with his undoing
Perhaps a more literal translation is called for.
Choix is def. a choice here; délicat as per Daryo can mean fine, but otherwise subtle or - usually missed by Anglo-American media reporting on French matters - tricky; accorder à can mean harmonise with, Harrap's > thanks Emmanuella; and défaite is used ironically for nemesis, undoing or downfall, as Safetex sanctioned my last go, rather than a dull-thud defeat.
Choix is def. a choice here; délicat as per Daryo can mean fine, but otherwise subtle or - usually missed by Anglo-American media reporting on French matters - tricky; accorder à can mean harmonise with, Harrap's > thanks Emmanuella; and défaite is used ironically for nemesis, undoing or downfall, as Safetex sanctioned my last go, rather than a dull-thud defeat.
Example sentence:
She spent hours fine-tuning her speech.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Emmanuella
: J' eliminerais date et j'ajouterais subtle. Sorry, Signore!
32 mins
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Grazie and merci. BTW. I am Adrian - male - or Androo in Afro-speak, so not 'changed her mind' or gone transgender as yet to 'Adrienne'.
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23 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
115
a somewhat/rather fitting date
I think keeping this sentence short and to the point is best
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Emmanuella
: ce n'est pas la date qui importe mais tout ce processus dramatique. Il faut rendre l'idée.
Every twist and turn ? Vous choisissez la facilité ! Accordé , heavy ? That's the keypoint!
You do speak English but you don't speak French and you cheat !!!
3 mins
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There is no need when translating a book to follow every twist and turn of the French language, which is often "heavy" compared to English; I am waitng to see your own suggestion
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+1
1 day 1 hr
Lara Barnett
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
www.lingocraft.co.uk
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, Singaporean, UK, South African, British, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, Italian to English, Romanian to English, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
42
...an exquisitely chosen way to accept defeat!
An idea, with which I would do a tiny bit of restructuring, and possible move the exclamation mark, if it is not taking too much licence, as I think ti works better in English..
I would say
"...final gesture was to spike his 1918 vintage champagne with poison, an exquisitely chosen way to accept defeat!"
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2021-10-02 17:01:17 GMT)
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...or even, "delicately chosen way to accept defeat".
Keeping the original might work better here anyway.
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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2021-10-03 12:54:01 GMT)
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Note
Obviously, the use of "way to go" here refers to the whole saga of choosing such a high quality drink to spike with the poison, combined with a small amount of restructuring licence, which certainly does not alter the overall nuance IMO.
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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2021-10-03 13:02:15 GMT)
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"Death by champagne, not a bad way to go."
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2010/aug/28/champagne-har...
I would say
"...final gesture was to spike his 1918 vintage champagne with poison, an exquisitely chosen way to accept defeat!"
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2021-10-02 17:01:17 GMT)
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...or even, "delicately chosen way to accept defeat".
Keeping the original might work better here anyway.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2021-10-03 12:54:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note
Obviously, the use of "way to go" here refers to the whole saga of choosing such a high quality drink to spike with the poison, combined with a small amount of restructuring licence, which certainly does not alter the overall nuance IMO.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2021-10-03 13:02:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"Death by champagne, not a bad way to go."
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2010/aug/28/champagne-har...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Emmanuella
: Joli mais le sens recherché ( accordé) par l'auteur n'est pas le même. Chosen way = choix.
Are you sure you understand the meaning of 'accordé à sa défaite' ?
50 mins
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How exactly is not the same? Are you sure that you understand the real meaning of "chosen way"?/ USAGE! Yes, I am aware of the meaning of choix and what it refers to. "Way to go" is an English expression, which you have not understood within the context
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: This fits the story and I fail to understand Emmanuella's objections to suggestions by English native speakers; there is no need to slavishly stick to the French wording
2 days 22 hrs
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Thank you.
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+1
2 days 18 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
119
such an elegant choice for his own demise
I'd roll this into one sentence.
I really like Heather's suggestion though, in spite of the fact that it strays from the meaning. Sometimes it is the way to go.
I really like Heather's suggestion though, in spite of the fact that it strays from the meaning. Sometimes it is the way to go.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
1 day 4 hrs
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| neutral |
Emmanuella
: L'élégance n'est pas le sujet. L'accord avec la défaite est déterminant
1 day 9 hrs
|
Discussion
Quid d'accorder le choix de cette date à sa défaite ?
What about : a subtle choice, definitely a fitting way to go !
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2010/aug/28/champagne-har...
.....where "way" can easily cover the whole idea of vintage, great year, excellent quality etc - i.e. contextual nuance.
Une proposition à affiner :
A subtle choice made to celebrate not just his personal defeat !