| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:20
Hebrew to English
| I think I've just entered the Twilight Zone...... | Jul 16, 2012 |
If you substitute "translator" for "bilingual" then the previous post might start making some semblance of sense.
A translator does not have to be born and raised bilingual anymore than a bilingual is automatically a translator.
If you can direct me to the academic studies, the prominent researchers, historical precedents which stipulate that a translator has to be "native" in two languages, then I'll eat my laptop.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 11:51
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Just a murderer won't do, just as, just a native translator won't do in many cases! | Jul 16, 2012 |
Nani Delgado wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Nani Delgado wrote:
But you should respect what the clients are looking for. And if they are looking for native speakers that´s what they should get. If you stretch that argument a bit, you could say, if the client is looking for murderers, nazis, and people of other undesirable bents of mind, we should have no qualms about fulfilling those client requirements. I got my words distorted many times in my life but that tops it all. Of course, Balasubramaniam, just last week a client of mine wanted a gun manual to be translated by a murder, because they know what they´re talking about. As I don´t outsource, I decided to kill my neighbour. Now I am fully qualified to do the job. The client is king. 
A murder can be committed in many ways - poison, strangling, knifing, etc. - haven't you read Agatha Christie? Not all murders are done with a gun. So a gun manual won't necessarily be best translated by a murderer (using a different implement or method).
But your example is quite relevant to our discussion in a different way. Just as any murderer won't do for translating a gun manual - you would need a murderer who specializes in killing his victims by shooting them with a gun, just any native translator wouldn't do for all translation jobs. In addition to being native, he/she should also have subject knowledge, felicity with the source and target language, maturity of expression matching the source text, and a host of other qualifications.
Unwittingly, even while being flippant, you have provided us with a capital (pun not intended) example. I must, as well as this community, I am sure, thank you for this.
[2012-07-16 10:31 GMT पर संपादन हुआ]
| | | | | I agree with most you said, Belasubrmanian | Jul 16, 2012 |
Some people look from a very narrow perspective. One small town, perhaps, where almost everybody speaks English, or at spoke English in the past. All the people of the town used similar vocabulary, and used standard English ins school. This is what their definition of a native language is based on. The problem is much more complex. They don't even believe linguists, the cream of whom is represented through their ideas collected in Wikipedia. What about other countries, like India, when some peop... See more Some people look from a very narrow perspective. One small town, perhaps, where almost everybody speaks English, or at spoke English in the past. All the people of the town used similar vocabulary, and used standard English ins school. This is what their definition of a native language is based on. The problem is much more complex. They don't even believe linguists, the cream of whom is represented through their ideas collected in Wikipedia. What about other countries, like India, when some people speak five different languages, most of them from childhood, some not all. I personally know one woman who claims to speak five Indian languages on a native level, and I believe her, because she is a linguist employed by some very serious American entities. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 11:51
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | A slight variation on your theme, with your leave | Jul 16, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
A translator does not have to be born and raised bilingual anymore than a bilingual is automatically a translator.
With your leave, a slight modification of your words of wisdom - A translator does not have to be born native in the target language and all natives of the target language do not automatically become a translator.
This in a nut-shell is what many in this maze of a thread (Lilian, Samuel, me) have been trying to get across.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:21
Hebrew to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
A translator does not have to be born and raised bilingual anymore than a bilingual is automatically a translator.
With your leave, a slight modification of your words of wisdom - A translator does not have to be born native in the target language and all natives of the target language do not automatically become a translator. This in a nut-shell is what many in this maze of a thread (Lilian, Samuel, me) have been trying to get across.
If you can point me to the post on this thread where somebody said that "a translator has to be born native in the target language" or "all natives of the target language become translators" I will eat my favourite dictionary (it will make a nice dessert to follow the laptop main course).
[Edited at 2012-07-16 10:46 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:21
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Just for the record | Jul 16, 2012 |
There seems to be a lot of insinuation, even point-blank accusations that this thread is driven by a few Brits with chips on their shoulders. Now I can’t instantly lay my hands on all the forum threads I’ve seen over the years in which English native speakers have suggested translating into their non-native language, but these are two recent on... See more There seems to be a lot of insinuation, even point-blank accusations that this thread is driven by a few Brits with chips on their shoulders. Now I can’t instantly lay my hands on all the forum threads I’ve seen over the years in which English native speakers have suggested translating into their non-native language, but these are two recent ones that spring to mind:
http://www.proz.com/forum/french/227926-anglais_français_par_anglaise.html
She was gently told to stick to her day job, but in this one the attacks were so vociferous that I felt I had to stand up for the topic starter (even if he was a suspected troll; it's already been mooted we may have one in this thread):
http://www.proz.com/forum/spanish/224719-donde_puedo_traducir_por_gratis.html
I am going off my own topic (and apologies to those who do not understand French or Spanish) but it's just an attempt to redress the balance. Nobody likes having their language massacred. Let’s stop clutching at straws and trying to make out that this is an issue exclusive to the Brits.
[Edited at 2012-07-16 12:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Of all the unmitigated tosh I have read... | Jul 16, 2012 |
... on this thread, this bilge takes the absolute biscuit
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
A translator is a person who very early in age has been exposed to two language cultures.
(....)
What this means is that, any worthwhile and competent translator will have two native languages, if not more.
Normally one would be surprised if a translator declares only one language as his native language, as that would disqualify him/her from being a translator.
(...)
It is actually people who have declared only one language as their native language who are being untruthful and need to be penalised, for by definition translators have to be native in two languages!
Of course, you might, were you so minded, reply in a Mandy Rice Davies type vein, but in all seriousness, I can't see that, taken at face value, there are any concrete grounds for these assertions at all.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:21
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Pot - kettle - black | Jul 16, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
What this means is that, any worthwhile and competent translator will have two native languages, if not more.
Normally one would be surprised if a translator declares only one language as his native language, as that would disqualify him/her from being a translator.
....
It is actually people who have declared only one language as their native language who are being untruthful and need to be penalised, for by definition translators have to be native in two languages!
So you're now joining our monolingual fraudulent club?
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:21
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| So you were born twice? | Jul 16, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
translators have to be native in two languages!
You can't be native in two languages. You can only be born in one place. Your native language is the language spoken in the place where you were born.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:21
Hebrew to English
This revelation makes your arguments all the more strange:
What was it you said? Oh yeah.....
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
any worthwhile and competent translator will have two native languages, if not more.
[Edited at 2012-07-16 12:12 GMT]
| | | | | Not necessarily the place you were born | Jul 16, 2012 |
Tom in London wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
translators have to be native in two languages!
You can't be native in two languages. You can only be born in one place. Your native language is the language spoken in the place where you were born.
Unless you are born, raised and educated in the same place, then where one is born isn't necessarily an indicator. My own son was born in Germany and for the first 3 years of his life, he heard English at home and German everywhere else. But he grew up in Belgium so his native languages are English (spoken at home) and French because he grew up and was educated in French. He speaks and writes Fr and En flawlessly and really does have 2 native languages. Happily for him, he is not a translator.
There are lots of people born in the US (the US used to automatically give citizenship to any child born there (not sure if that's still the case)). But when the child and parents move back to their home country where the child is then raised and educated, US citizen or not, the child won't necessarily qualify as a 'native English speaker'. Unless they are on Proz...... or other such sites.
[Edited at 2012-07-16 12:25 GMT]
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 08:21
Italian to English
| @ Balasubramaniam L. : you are missing the point and getting the facts wrong to boot | Jul 16, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
A translator does not have to be born and raised bilingual anymore than a bilingual is automatically a translator.
With your leave, a slight modification of your words of wisdom - A translator does not have to be born native in the target language and all natives of the target language do not automatically become a translator. This in a nut-shell is what many in this maze of a thread (Lilian, Samuel, me) have been trying to get across.
No one has said or insinuated in this thread that a translator has 'to be born native in the target language'. Nor has anyone said in this thread that 'a bilingual is automatically a translator'. Wherever have you gotten such ideas??
With all due respect, have you actually read the posts in this thread? I ask because, frankly, if you had, you would know that neither of the above claims have been made here.
As per the title of the thread itself - 'Should "native language" claims be verified?' - this thread seeks to address the recognized problem of a large and growing number of proz.com members claiming to be native speakers of languages that are clearly - as in painfully clearly - not in fact their native languages, by any stretch of the definition 'native'.
As has been specified ad nauseam, it's about the most blatant cases of 'native language fraud'. Not about borderline cases. Not about whether or not it is acceptable for people to translate into non-native languages.
The thread is about the most egregious cases, blatantly fraudulent native language claims, and how the instances of such fraud on this site might be reduced through site policy.
The idea is that if outsourcers using proz.com want a list of native language translators, they should get a list with a good deal more integrity than is presently provided.
edited for typos!
[Edited at 2012-07-16 13:13 GMT]
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| Aren't most people from India considered | Jul 16, 2012 |
native speakers of English -- the whole school system is in English, or at least most of it, isn't it?
There were no schools in local languages for years.
Certain comments of some people should not be really taken seriously because they use folk etymology of words, or rather folk definitions, which have nothing to do with linguistic research. Some are not even sure what bilingual means, not to mention a native language definition.
... See more native speakers of English -- the whole school system is in English, or at least most of it, isn't it?
There were no schools in local languages for years.
Certain comments of some people should not be really taken seriously because they use folk etymology of words, or rather folk definitions, which have nothing to do with linguistic research. Some are not even sure what bilingual means, not to mention a native language definition.
[Edited at 2012-07-16 12:28 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 02:21
Spanish to English
+ ...
| A slight tangent | Jul 16, 2012 |
A slight tangent would seem not a bad idea, given the rather pathetic intellectual quality of the present debate.
One idea to escape from too close an association with the watered-down notion of what constitutes a translator (which seems inherent to sites with radical open-door policies such as this one) is to create a site based on verified identity as a native English language speaker. The criteria for determining nativeness would essentially include upbringing and education (incl... See more A slight tangent would seem not a bad idea, given the rather pathetic intellectual quality of the present debate.
One idea to escape from too close an association with the watered-down notion of what constitutes a translator (which seems inherent to sites with radical open-door policies such as this one) is to create a site based on verified identity as a native English language speaker. The criteria for determining nativeness would essentially include upbringing and education (including higher education) in an English-speaking milieu, and provision could be made to account for the kinds of rare exceptions that have periodically come up in this discussion.
I would add that, on such a hypothetical site, I would never expect to see forum postings full of beligerent claims about the author's nativeness that were instead cringeworthy and definitive confirmations of non-native status.
This could of course be replicated for other languages, but I do have the distinct impression that English has been one of the languages most abused by non-native claims, and this has helped perpetuate the kind of watered-down definition of what constitutes native English that some here are trying to defend.
Once again, I think that the root of the problem is a site that institutes a radical open-door model and then--in the interests of preserving that model--refuses to put the kinds of controls in place that would be necessary to prevent different kinds of misrepresentation or abuse, whether with respect to native language claims, excessive dependence on Kudoz, or posted jobs with ridiculously low rates.
If I am right, then a "one-stop warehouse" model of website would need to be replaced by more of a "boutique model" of different websites, each of which would cater to large market niches, but where service providers have been vetted to a reasonable degree to keep out frauds and impostors.
[Edited at 2012-07-16 14:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Bizarre and eccentric claims | Jul 16, 2012 |
[quote]Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
"A translator is a person who very early in age has been exposed to two language cultures.
What this means is that, any worthwhile and competent translator will have two native languages, if not more[!]
Normally one would be surprised if a translator declares only one language as his native language, as that would disqualify him/her from being a translator.
It is actually people who have declared only one language as their native language who are being untruthful and need to be penalised, for by definition translators have to be native in two languages!"
The above claims are so bizarre and disconnected from reality that it's hard to take them seriously.
In another post, the author of the above lines declared "our energies would be better spent if we concentrate on client education instead of calling each other fraudsters and liers [sic] or spying on each other". Yet he's now calling the many professional translators who quite properly state that they have only one native language liars (and by implication fraudsters).
Perhaps one should be kind and assume that this poster is a harmless eccentric.
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