Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

un turque d'outretombe

English translation:

a(n arcane) Turkish patois

Added to glossary by Yvonne Gallagher
May 23, 2020 13:06
3 yrs ago
41 viewers *
French term

un turque d'outretombe

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
Extrait du livre:


"C’est qu’alors qu’une petite fille, qui devait avoir entre trois et quatre ans, reçut l’ordre (en un turque d’outre-tombe) de me guider vers un tas de détritus qui gisait non loin de là"


This is about Turkish-speaking "Roms", whose language is therefore tortuous and distorted by centuries of various migrations. The expression "Un turque d'outre-tombe", here, means here "an abstruse Turkish language". I do have a few translation ideas, but not being native, I just beg your advice.
Change log

May 26, 2020 12:42: Yvonne Gallagher Created KOG entry

Discussion

Barbara Cochran, MFA May 23, 2020:
And I'd use "Turkish of another world" because it is more literary than any of the other options offered.
Philippa Smith May 23, 2020:
abstruse I'd use your own suggestion, "in abstruse Turkish", given the specific meaning here as you describe it.

Proposed translations

+1
1 day 22 hrs
Selected

a Turkish patois

I think archaic and outdated imply that it is no longer spoken, or is obsolete whereas this obviously isn't. It's a form of non-standard language like a Creole (which doesn't fit here however). I've been mulling this over and have finally managed to think of the proper word to describe this.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/patois

the form of a language spoken by people in a particular area that is different from the standard language of the country:
the local patois

https://www.lexico.com/definition/patois
The dialect of a particular region, especially one with low status in relation to the standard language of the country.

‘the nurse talked to me in a patois that even Italians would have had difficulty in understanding’
1.1 The jargon or informal speech used by a particular social group.
examples ‘the raunchy patois of inner-city kids’

‘We have 1984 today; even if not in the form described by Orwell; since newspeak is replaced by the patois of the gang leaders and international body smugglers.’

‘To emulate (in the specific patois of archivists) is to re-create a work that uses a defunct technology by essentially re-copying it into a current technology.’

Origin
Mid 17th century French, literally ‘rough speech’, perhaps from Old French patoier ‘treat roughly’, from patte ‘paw’.



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Note added at 1 day 22 hrs (2020-05-25 11:55:43 GMT)
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You could also add "arcane" or "abstruse" to emphasise its rarity or obscurity

[she spoke in] an arcane/abstruse Turkish patois

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Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2020-05-26 12:41:00 GMT) Post-grading
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Glad to have helped (and that I finally managed to remember the right word for this!)
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : Good idea!
2 hrs
Thanks:-)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Yvonne for your answer. It was quite useful for me "
+5
40 mins

a wacky / archaic / outlandish Turkish

a few suggestions
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : I think wacky is too colloquial, and outlandish too denigratory. But archaic works.
9 mins
OK, thanks, Phil
agree James A. Walsh : Yeah I like archaic too - works well here!
3 hrs
Thanks James
agree Carol Gullidge : archaic
5 hrs
Thanks Carol
agree ormiston : Archaic
19 hrs
Thanks ormiston
agree Marian Vieyra : Archaic
21 hrs
Thanks Marian
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I completely disagree with "outlandish" and "wacky" and am not so sure about "archaic" either
23 hrs
Thank you Yvonne
neutral Saro Nova : outlandish sounds not right. See my suggestion for BASTARDIZED TURKISH, with sample sentence and reference. I realize it doesn't translate OUTRE-TOMBE exactly, but I think it's easily approximated by adding "archaic" or other suggestions herein before it.
1 day 19 hrs
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1 hr

Turkish of another world

"outretombe" somethmes means "otherworldly"

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Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-23 14:31:32 GMT)
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Of another world in time.
Note from asker:
is "Otherworldly Turkish" also correct ?
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+2
2 hrs

outdated/obsolete Turkish

in a language that is no longer spoken
Peer comment(s):

agree Carol Gullidge : this is how I see it!
4 hrs
Tanks!
agree Marian Vieyra : Obsolete would be my choice.
19 hrs
Thanks!
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+1
2 hrs

Turkish from another century

another way to express it
Peer comment(s):

agree Ben Gaia
10 days
Something went wrong...
20 hrs

an outdated or outlandish Turkish

'd'outretombe' could mean from another tomb
I agree it means outdated or outlandish.
Example sentence:

Une petite fille, qui devait avoir entre trois ou quatre ans, reçut l'ordre (en un turque d'outretombe) de me guider vers un tas de détritus qui gisait non loin de là.

A small girl of three or four years old received the order (in an outlandish or outdated Turkish) to guide me towards a pile of debris (litter) which was laid not far from there.

Something went wrong...
1 day 19 hrs

bastardized Turkish

I don't know but "outlandish" just doesn't do it for me. A language that is made up of many influences and misused is called bastardized, as in a bastardized tongue. Thought this might be a more fitting alternative.
Example sentence:

...Armenian nationalism had moved the Kurds to ally with the Turkish- ... a dialect of bastardized Turkish, which had evolved while these individuals had ...

Note from asker:
Is it pejorative in English? In french, it is.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Yvonne Gallagher : far too pejorative
2 hrs
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3 days 19 hrs

a Turk from beyond the grave

It may not be referring to the language spoken here, it could be referring to an actual person.
1st idea: A Turk from overseas.
2nd idea: A Turk from beyond the grave (outre-tombe).
I am leaning toward the 'beyond the grave' it is more other worldly, literary and poetic.
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