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Anybody in the U.S. worried about the ProAct?
Thread poster: Esther Pugh
Irene (Renata) Liapis
Irene (Renata) Liapis  Identity Verified
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Some practical information from Coptic Mar 13, 2021

Check these links - they provide some very valuable, recent information, just so that we can all be aware of what the exact status is in California and going forward as well.

http://coalitionptic.org/faq/

https://ncta.org/questions-about-ab5/


The ATA is also taking
... See more
Check these links - they provide some very valuable, recent information, just so that we can all be aware of what the exact status is in California and going forward as well.

http://coalitionptic.org/faq/

https://ncta.org/questions-about-ab5/


The ATA is also taking action and asking its members to contact senators as well.

At this point, I think we should push for our cause. This is not an issue to stay silent about.
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Esther Pugh
Ildiko Santana
 
Dan Lucas
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More (?) clarity Mar 13, 2021

A thoughtful summary from the Authors Guild. The bit that I thought interesting was this:

What this means is that, if the PRO Act is enacted, independent contractors will be given rights and protected under the NLRA as if they were employees—i.e., the rights to form and join unions and collectively bargain
Because
... See more
A thoughtful summary from the Authors Guild. The bit that I thought interesting was this:

What this means is that, if the PRO Act is enacted, independent contractors will be given rights and protected under the NLRA as if they were employees—i.e., the rights to form and join unions and collectively bargain
Because under US anti-trust law it is illegal for independent contractors to organize, on the face of it this would be a major change. (In our own profession, the ATA itself was investigated by the FTC back in the 1990s for simply discussing and sharing information on prices, so yes, it has been an issue even for translators.)

So, the test is being used for different purposes than AB5. If the PRO Act is passed, the question is how agencies will respond to dealing with freelancers who have a right to organise. Whichever way you look at it, this would be an additional factor for agencies to consider, and a potential cost.

If passed, could the bill put a floor under the market if freelancers in the US translation industry form unions with teeth? Possibly. Could it eventually destroy jobs by destroying the competitiveness of translators at the low end? Possibly. After all, if the rate charged by a freelance translator were to rise by 20-30% without any improvement in quality, it would encourage some clients to look more closely at MT, or to explore the use of translators overseas, especially those in developed countries with reliable and accessible legal systems.

If the bill is passed, it still looks to me like a potentially negative change for US freelancers, but what do I know? I guess we'll have to see what happens.

Dan
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Liviu-Lee Roth
 
Orkoyen (X)
Orkoyen (X)
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Another reason why Newsom is being recalled. Mar 13, 2021

Thank you for the information! I just read it and am very concerned. I hope that this piece of California legislation is appealed and ruled unlawful at a federal level. It sounds compassionate but fits the mold of being another set piece of government over-control.

Esther Pugh
Ildiko Santana
 
Esther Pugh
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TOPIC STARTER
Get active Mar 14, 2021

That is why it’s important that we call or write to our U.S. senators. Encourage your friends to do the same. Let people know about the ABC Test and the IRS standards, and remind them of AB5. Many seem to have forgotten about its negative consequences.

[Edited at 2021-03-14 18:46 GMT]


Dan Lucas
Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
Ildiko Santana
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MODERATOR
ATA Asks Senate to Amend PRO Act Mar 14, 2021

ATA Asks Senate to Amend PRO Act
https://www.atanet.org/advocacy-outreach/ata-asks-senate-to-amend-pro-act/

Protection from exploitation and misclassification is essential for some occupations. Ours is not one of them. We are calling on ATA members to contact their senators as soon as possible to inform them of the serious unintended consequenc
... See more
ATA Asks Senate to Amend PRO Act
https://www.atanet.org/advocacy-outreach/ata-asks-senate-to-amend-pro-act/

Protection from exploitation and misclassification is essential for some occupations. Ours is not one of them. We are calling on ATA members to contact their senators as soon as possible to inform them of the serious unintended consequences of PRO Act on our industry.
Learn more—

Stand Up, Take Action!

The Protecting the Right to Organize Act of 2021, also known as PRO Act, represents a dramatic change in U.S. labor law, including the adoption of the ABC worker classification test at the federal level. This will make it more difficult for individuals to claim independent contractor status. A similar ABC test proved disastrous for most professional translators and interpreters in California when the state’s Assembly Bill 5 went into effect in 2020.

PRO Act is now under consideration in the U.S. Senate after being passed by the House of Representatives on March 9.
What You Can Do as an ATA Member

Protection from exploitation and misclassification is essential for some occupations. Ours is not one of them. We are calling on ATA members to contact their senators as soon as possible to inform them of the serious unintended consequences of PRO Act on our industry. Not only is the ability of professional linguists to practice as independent contractors threatened, but continued access to language services by those with limited English proficiency is also at risk.

Read ATA’s letter to Congress: H.R.842 – Protecting the Right to Organize Act of 2021.
file:///C:/Users/ildik/AppData/Local/Temp/ATA-PRO-Act-letter.pdf

Contact Your Senator Today!
Go to the U.S. Senate to find your state’s senators.
https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm
Feel free to use ATA’s letter to Congress as a basis for your communication and add your own personal appeal for amendment.

Questions?
Email the ATA Advocacy Committee at [email protected].
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Esther Pugh
Liviu-Lee Roth
Dan Lucas
Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
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Denial - Bargaining Mar 15, 2021

One of the fathers of Virtual Reality in Silicon Valley, Mr. Jaron Lanier, stated in detail in one of his speeches (you can find it on YouTube) that they didn't think that their practices against copyrights and controlled content distribution would hurt musicians. He says that they discovered that prior to their technological actions, there was a huge middle class of musicians (mostly local) in the US, afterwards it was completely destroyed (almost 100% elimination) within a very short period of... See more
One of the fathers of Virtual Reality in Silicon Valley, Mr. Jaron Lanier, stated in detail in one of his speeches (you can find it on YouTube) that they didn't think that their practices against copyrights and controlled content distribution would hurt musicians. He says that they discovered that prior to their technological actions, there was a huge middle class of musicians (mostly local) in the US, afterwards it was completely destroyed (almost 100% elimination) within a very short period of time. Did you ever hear about this? I bet not. Many voices, but very weak and without coverage from large media.
He called that "unintended consequences", and while I can believe him in this case (tech geeks usually have no idea of the harm their products can cause if developed very quickly), I do not believe it for politicians. They know very well, but they don't care. In the end, they may tell you "learn to code". If you remind them that coding nowadays hardly pays any bills and it may be affected negatively by the PRO Act as well, they just won't respond.
The voter basis is not a large or powerful enough block for them to care(*), and those harmed by it will mostly blame themselves for failing to predict laws in 2021 drafted with the mentality and realities of the 19th century. In essence, it's a law that forbids people to work for themselves. Let that sink in.
You won't find any support in forums after it happens - they'll blame you for not being competitive enough, etc etc.
(*) The voter basis of freelancers is practically non-existent; besides the large number, it is fragmented and in most cases each one is isolated from the other ones. We have zero political clout.
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Even if an exemption is provided for T&Is, the largest agencies that control 90% of the material that needs to be translated, will not feel confident enough to continue relationships with US-based T&Is, because, as we speak, they can manage 100% of their business with only those outside of the country.
As far as in-house translators (home or office-based), they already have them - it's a very small number of people to provide final proofreading of MT, and solve issues when the freelancer is not available. They have absolutely no need to increase that number of in-house T&Is.
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Funny thing is, former US-based translators will try to find other jobs, only to discover that other markets are also over-flooded with resumes of others who also lost their livelihood. While at the same time, the government will still have everyone listed as a freelancer just to show a much lower unemployment rate than the real one. Not the first time this happens, it's standard practice. And oh, in the US you don't qualify for unemployment benefit as a contractor. It's the perfect storm.
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A lot of US-based (non-California based) translators in the US have already experienced rapid decline of work from certain agencies, right after the AB5 was enacted in CA. The story in the background is that Vendor Management teams decided to replace them with offshore translators, not wanting to take any chances. Why risk fines for any reason, when the market of offshore translators is completely risk-free, vast, cheaper, and doesn't even require sending 1099s?
The well is already poisoned in the US since the AB5 passed, and it'll only get worse or 100% prohibitive.
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Forming a company won't save you, unless you have legitimate employees. There's an idea of forming businesses of multiple translators for "business to business" arrangements, which the law allows, but given the rapid shift towards offshore T&Is, it's hardly worth the expenses and the complexity.
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Moving abroad and rescinding US citizenship asap may be the best option for many. They'll get far cheaper healthcare too. The older ones can stay here trying to compete with professional programmers in the world of coding, or just get a job with Amazon and a roommate to help with the rent.
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What I see in most posts in this thread, is classic denial-bargaining. People can't believe this can happen (despite the very clear language in the law), they think that an exemption will be as good enough as if nothing had happened, and are trying to find ideas of why and how this could spin in a different direction (that's the bargaining part). The damage is already done since the AB5, Vendor Managers decided in most agencies to not take any chances and to shift to the offshore worker base. The PRO Act, if it passes, will be the final blow. We know the response: "if a person can translate from a different language, they can sure learn to code". And we know that in every forum there will be one person trying to present the situation as rosy or beneficial. I see at least one of them lately in all sorts of forums nowadays, even in photography-related ones. Sigh...


[Edited at 2021-03-15 01:40 GMT]
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Ildiko Santana
 
Sadek_A
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A simple suggestion to consider! Mar 15, 2021

Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Vendor Management teams decided to replace them with offshore translators, not wanting to take any chances


How about, instead of calling on T&Is to contact their senators for removal of the bill, you call on T&Is to contact their senators for an act-mandated, say, 40% minimum of workload going to US-based providers, with an act-mandated need for documented evidence by companies on their fulfillment of that allocation?


 
Dan Lucas
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Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Six figures Mar 15, 2021

Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
If you remind them that coding nowadays hardly pays any bills and it may be affected negatively by the PRO Act as well, they just won't respond.

Other people have different views that are perhaps grounded on better information. If we move away from anecdote and opinion, however repeatedly and forcefully expressed, we find that data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics points to a median annual wage for software developers of $108k, and growth of greater than 20% annually until the end of the decade.

But what does the BLS know, eh? Perhaps they're just indulging in classic denial-bargaining.

Dan

EDIT: it was the median annual wage, not the average - corrected



[Edited at 2021-03-15 09:16 GMT]


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
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View from the outside Mar 15, 2021

Isn't there a lack of logic in here somewhere?

In the unlikely event that the largest translation market in the world with the largest pool of translators suddenly outsourced everything to translators abroad...

... non-US translators would then be too busy with US clients to service their non-US clients...

... resulting in an equal amount of work flowing into the US from those non-US clients.

So at the end of the day the same number of people
... See more
Isn't there a lack of logic in here somewhere?

In the unlikely event that the largest translation market in the world with the largest pool of translators suddenly outsourced everything to translators abroad...

... non-US translators would then be too busy with US clients to service their non-US clients...

... resulting in an equal amount of work flowing into the US from those non-US clients.

So at the end of the day the same number of people do the same amount of work.
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Dan Lucas
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Assumptions Mar 15, 2021

Chris S wrote:
... non-US translators would then be too busy with US clients to service their non-US clients...
... resulting in an equal amount of work flowing into the US from those non-US clients.

That is logical if we assume that non-US translators are already working at capacity, but are they? I could take on probably another 30-40% more work, maybe more in the long term (i.e. once I get used to new clients and ways of working), and I have almost no exposure to the US at the moment...

Dan


 
Sadek_A
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😃 Mar 15, 2021

Chris S wrote:
... non-US translators would then be too busy with US clients to service their non-US clients...
... resulting in an equal amount of work flowing into the US from those non-US clients.
So at the end of the day the same number of people do the same amount of work.


The chicken or the egg kind-of-thing!


 
Esther Pugh
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This is about how misclassification is determined Mar 15, 2021

Sadek_A wrote:

Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Vendor Management teams decided to replace them with offshore translators, not wanting to take any chances


How about, instead of calling on T&Is to contact their senators for removal of the bill, you call on T&Is to contact their senators for an act-mandated, say, 40% minimum of workload going to US-based providers, with an act-mandated need for documented evidence by companies on their fulfillment of that allocation?


That’s far-fetched, but whatever....

In terms of contacting senators, esp the HELP committee, it’s not about “removal of the bill” per se, but about removing the ABC test FROM the bill. Again, this is not an effort against the ProAct itself, because - as stated above - unionizing should be available as an option to everyone who wants it. It’s about replacing the ABC test with the IRS guidelines, in order to determine IC status. IRS standards have worked fine for decades. They should be used in the future as well. Win-win! End of story.


Liviu-Lee Roth
 
Sadek_A
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..... Mar 15, 2021

Esther Pugh wrote:
unionizing should be available as an option to everyone who wants it
[effort is for] removing the ABC test FROM the bill

I don't think any T&I provider supporting the Act is primarily more interested in unionization than in naturally-deserved, smoothly-accessed employment benefits.
I don't see said Act as a means to overpower employers [through plotting, strikes, etc., by employees], but rather to empower employees [through a token of financial responsibility by employers].
And, without the three prongs, there would be no reclassification and consequently no employment benefits.
Maybe you could share your solutions, if any, to the current agonies of T&I, in place of the Pro Act. I'm sure if they are successful solutions, no one will ever say no to them.
Just a reminder of some of those agonies:
- T&I providers paid too little.
- End clients paying too much.
- Middle links devouring the lion's share.
- Outsourcers jammed into transaction, undeservedly scooping a lot while going totally expense-free.
- Scammers with unlimited ability to hire at will and not pay.


 
Dan Lucas
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A-C Mar 15, 2021

Esther Pugh wrote:
In terms of contacting senators, esp the HELP committee, it’s not about “removal of the bill” per se, but about removing the ABC test FROM the bill.

In fact, if they could even get the B prong removed it would help... But I agree, why not use the more nuanced IRS approach.

Dan


Esther Pugh
Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
Esther Pugh
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Follow the AFL-CIO money Mar 15, 2021

Sadek_A wrote:

Esther Pugh wrote:
unionizing should be available as an option to everyone who wants it
[effort is for] removing the ABC test FROM the bill

I don't think any T&I provider supporting the Act is primarily more interested in unionization than in naturally-deserved, smoothly-accessed employment benefits.
I don't see said Act as a means to overpower employers [through plotting, strikes, etc., by employees], but rather to empower employees [through a token of financial responsibility by employers].
And, without the three prongs, there would be no reclassification and consequently no employment benefits.
Maybe you could share your solutions, if any, to the current agonies of T&I, in place of the Pro Act. I'm sure if they are successful solutions, no one will ever say no to them.
Just a reminder of some of those agonies:
- T&I providers paid too little.
- End clients paying too much.
- Middle links devouring the lion's share.
- Outsourcers jammed into transaction, undeservedly scooping a lot while going totally expense-free.
- Scammers with unlimited ability to hire at will and not pay.


No offense, but I think you might be in the wrong business, if you think that the b prong will generally benefit translators that are small business owners. I don’t know you, but if you think that T&I agencies take “advantage” of you, and that they are “exploiting” you and what not, you might be ill-equipped to run a business in the first place.

I can only speak for myself - but I only work for T&I agencies (and other, direct clients) that pay my rate. Isn’t that the reasonable thing to do? And I don’t think I am the only one here who charges what they want to charge. If you’re not able to do that: There’s no shame in that. You wouldn’t be the first one. Maybe you’re one of those who are not able to negotiate a reasonable rate, a reasonable deadline, and reasonable contracts – and that’s OK. Just look for employment under a W-2 scenario. There are many jobs available for people like you, I’m sure. But that has got nothing to do with what we’re discussing here. Your specific case doesn’t apply to the entire industry here, I’m afraid (no, I’m actually glad....🤣🤣).

And if you think big labor has no influence here, I have to say that a teeny weeny tiny bit of naïveté is going on here - just look at the union donations to democratic decision-makers, and you will know what’s going on. It’s not that complicated. Follow the money!! Opensecrets is a good source, for example. But feel free to use other sources! Good luck!


Ildiko Santana
Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
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Anybody in the U.S. worried about the ProAct?







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